v8 feedback

[Teodosio]

SMAC doesn't have building descriptions. Do you mean the voice quotes perhaps?

Ops, probably I am confusing it with the tech descriptions. In any case including descriptions in the Datalinks would be very good for the atmosphere.

 

[Tssha]

Thanks a lot Pfeffersack. I saw your thread below and I'll check out all those links as soon as what I read in the thread below starts to sink in. Yeah, it's a lot of info to absorb all at once.

Maniac, I am very specifically avoiding comment on what isn't finished because I don't want to you move something up the schedule in order to "window-dress" this mod. I just want you to take the time to develop the mod in the direction you feel it needs to go. Creative processes that are rushed are often of lower quality than those that get the time they need to...well, shall I say, percolate?

Regardless, it's your mod and I'm not going to try to influence your development process. I know you want some input, but right now I can't give it to you. Maybe when it's closer to completion I'll point out some "less refined" bits that you may not have noticed, but until then, I'll reserve comment. If it isn't fixed by then, it won't be too late to change it.

I'm not playing this mod currently...and I can wait a bit. It gets better with every version, so I'm in no hurry and I've got other games on my plate right now.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Feedback with v8, Patch d:

- The governeurs Hacker-Mania is still present. After 200 turns, 19 out of 31 Great persons in the world are Hackers (for me: 3 out of 5). Among the left 12 GPs, Doctors(5) and Tycoons(4) dominate - only 2 Transcendents (me=1), 1 Great Psych Caplain (mine as well) and yet no Great Scientist/Great Engineer

I think there are two possible reasons for this. One is that Librarian slots are opened up early, easy and frequently - building a Network Node seems to be never a bad idea (Hologram Theathers aren't bad either), while buildings providing other specialist come much later (and then their impact on GP generation is much lower) or get only build in some bases. Especially Scientists, Merchants and Engineers are hit by this (though the latters are dangerous terrain, because too early and/or easy GEs can unbalance the game greatly)
The other problem is that the governeur seems neglect some specialist types on purpose - likely because their yields don't fit in his understanding of valuable yields or priorities. Thats ok to some extend, if their are situations where the governeur puts emphasize on them - Doctors are a positive example, they get only employed if health is an issue. However, the governeur seems to next to never see a value in assigning Empaths or Psych Chaplains (unless you set GPs in general as priority and even then only if no other slots are available - you have no "special" emphasize to get them)

A fundamental solution would be changing the governeur, but some changes regarding the specialist slots some buildings procide could help as well. E.g. the Biolab could provide a Scientist slot or the Hologram Theater could provide a Psych Chaplain instead of a Hacker (or is that too far away from the idea of this building - at least it helps with recreation as well?)

- I played as Deidre and planned towards running Autarky and Hybrid. I think the health penalty should be higher to achieve smaller cities. -2 can be easily overcome by employing a single doctor or trading for health ressoruces. Maybe the penalty should be somehow connected to your average planet value (-1 per 0,5 positive planet value) or the flowering counter (-2 flat, another -10 for every 10 point flowering counter)?

- Is it intended that the Memetics tech icon is now the Divine Right one from unmodded Civ4? (see picture)

- A minor problem, because you can use the show-ressoruce-overlay, but anyway: The Brown Algae ressource is sometimes very hard to spot. The picture shows it on Highlands/Rocky Arid.

 

[Maniac]

I think there are two possible reasons for this. One is that Librarian slots are opened up early, easy and frequently - building a Network Node seems to be never a bad idea (Hologram Theathers aren't bad either), while buildings providing other specialist come much later (and then their impact on GP generation is much lower) or get only build in some bases. Especially Scientists, Merchants and Engineers are hit by this (though the latters are dangerous terrain, because too early and/or easy GEs can unbalance the game greatly)

The fact that the only-situationally-useful specialists (Doctor, Empath, Librarian, Chaplain) are available earlier, is intentional. Now early-game buildings which open one of these specialists slots are somewhat valuable - I mean, almost anything is better than the default Citizen specialist. If a universally useful specialist (engineer, merchant, scientist) is available earlier, then it's a no brainer choice to pick that specialist, and the value of all other specialist-providing buildings drops.

It may be true though that even in the later game, there aren't enough universally-useful specialists slots.

I want universally useful specialists to appear at the earliest through level 3 or 4 techs. Unfortunately there aren't any level 3 or 4 buildings right now, for which it would fit to give a engineer/merchant/scientist specialist slot.

Perhaps civics can provide a solution. Those come available about at the right time. Civics giving unlimited specialists I deem too powerful (and reduces the value of many buildings), but perhaps some civics could give each base one of a certain specialist slot? Free Market or Wealth gives one Merchant slot, Knowledge gives one Scientist slot, and Planned gives one Engineer slot.

However, the governeur seems to next to never see a value in assigning Empaths or Psych Chaplains (unless you set GPs in general as priority and even then only if no other slots are available - you have no "special" emphasize to get them)

Chaplains are only useful in very specific situations. And in those situations (border expansion) the AI does use them. I don't see a problem there.
Empaths not being chosen over Librarians even when you're running a high Planet strategy, is a problem. I did add some AI code for empaths, but the values may be too low to make the specialist worth it. Kinda hard to know sometimes what order of magnitude some SDK function's value is. I could add a quick fix that when you have a positive Planet attitude (>=1) and the base does not have positive commerce modifiers for espionage, an Empath is always deemed more valuable than a Librarian.

- I played as Deidre and planned towards running Autarky and Hybrid. I think the health penalty should be higher to achieve smaller cities. -2 can be easily overcome by employing a single doctor or trading for health ressoruces. Maybe the penalty should be somehow connected to your average planet value (-1 per 0,5 positive planet value) or the flowering counter (-2 flat, another -10 for every 10 point flowering counter)?

The Hybrid civic is supposed to have a synergy with a high Planet strategy. Your idea does the opposite. I'm not sure -2 health is too low. I'll explain the math I had in mind when deciding on that number:

As a rule of thumb I consider 1 food = 2 commerce. A base can under Emperor difficulty IIRC have at most 7 credits worth of number of bases maintenance costs. So that's a benefit of 7 credits, but a penalty of 4 credits (2 * 2 food). That's a benefit of 3 credits per base. Or the extra benefit of three Sea Mills if you would be running the Enclosed Biosphere civic instead. On first sight this doesn't seem too big a benefit to me. I noticed in your save btw you yourself aren't even running a Hybrid ecology!

- Is it intended that the Memetics tech icon is now the Divine Right one from unmodded Civ4? (see picture)

I know - I'm just too lazy to make fitting buttons.

- A minor problem, because you can use the show-ressoruce-overlay, but anyway: The Brown Algae ressource is sometimes very hard to spot. The picture shows it on Highlands/Rocky Arid.

I don't know how to solve that issue. I named the Algae after the colour of the terrain they appear on, so they would be easier to remember. That does indeed create visibility issues if the resource model is the same colour.

 

[self biased]

is there some sort of high maintenance mechaninc for newly captured cities?

also, the game crashes on me for some reason, but it appears to be arbitrary.

 

[Maniac]

is there some sort of high maintenance mechaninc for newly captured cities?

Are you suffering food shortages? This causes 'Ultraponics maintenance'.

also, the game crashes on me for some reason, but it appears to be arbitrary.

Yeah, me too... It's a recent problem and I don't know the cause. Is it only when loading a save game or exiting to the main menu, or also when simply playing?

 

[self biased]

Are you suffering food shortages? This causes 'Ultraponics maintenance'.

not that i could tell. there were instances that maintenance would read -3.2, and then the total maintenance was about six times that.

Yeah, me too... It's a recent problem and I don't know the cause. Is it only when loading a save game or exiting to the main menu, or also when simply playing?

just when playing. it's the only time that i experience these random crashes.

it annoys me to no end when my terraformer neighbor has a pop, and then does nothing about the fungal tower that proceeds to blockade my base . i can't do anything about it because i'd have to declare war on him to be able to resolve the issue.

 

[Maniac]

not that i could tell. there were instances that maintenance would read -3.2, and then the total maintenance was about six times that.

Do such situations correct themselves after one turn?
A screenshot could come useful.

just when playing. it's the only time that i experience these random crashes.

That is cause for concern. Kinda strange how these random crashes work. Other people have reported being able to play 700+ turns without a single crash. Anyway, I'd appreciate a save. Most likely, being random, I won't be able to find the cause, but a save of a game at an advanced year is always good to track down asserts and weird AI behaviour.

it annoys me to no end when my terraformer neighbor has a pop, and then does nothing about the fungal tower that proceeds to blockade my base . i can't do anything about it because i'd have to declare war on him to be able to resolve the issue.[/i]

I'm making progress on these issues. Last time you played Planetfall the worker AI was simply unaware of anything outside the base radii, such as fungus. Now they will remove fungus even outside base radii.
That new code doesn't help of course when the AI has too few formers, so in the near future I will try to make heavy polluters build more formers.

 

[Pfeffersack]

That is cause for concern. Kinda strange how these random crashes work. Other people have reported being able to play 700+ turns without a single crash. Anyway, I'd appreciate a save. Most likely, being random, I won't be able to find the cause, but a save of a game at an advanced year is always good to track down asserts and weird AI behaviour.

I have random and non-reproduceable crashes regularly, but they only happen after and in the process of frequent alt-tabbing (means getting back in the game crashes it). Loading the last autosave allows to play on without problems. The only other factor beside alt-tabbing, which seems to infuence the frequemcy of those crashes, is the game stage - they happen more often in the later game.

 

[self biased]

true, the game does seem to crash more often in the late game and when someone's pestering me on trillian, but only for planetfall.

and yes, maniac the discrepencies were generally for only a turn or so, but some did last longer, if i remember correctly.

 

[Maniac]

Have these crashes started to happen recently (in the last month or so), or have you had them forever?

If they were recent, the sea colony pod unit may cause crashes.

Of course in the same patch that I made a change (and thereby introduced bugs) to the sea colony pod, I also solved another unrelated bug which would cause similar symptoms, so it may be hard to figure out what crash is caused by what problem... :dizzy:

Save games of around the first time you get a crash (and if possible the ten turns before that) are always welcome. The asserts can help find the crash source.

 

[self biased]

a few screenshots and a save game that might be useful to you.

 

[orlanth]

I've been playing this mod and wanted to post that I thought it is actually really well made and enjoyable I was particularly impressed with implementation of the Planet and Bloom counters, also the cool terrain tactics of apparently having to access a Ridge by climbing through Highlands (how was that done, through a Python check?) Well here are a few initial comments/feedback:

I don't know if this is too difficult to achieve or already discussed; but one of my fave features of SMAC was how your government "Efficiency" was affected by the civic choices; you then had to work within caps of how much of your economy you could devote to science / energy stockpiling etc. I thought this was a really creative way around the old Civ problem of science being basically equivalent to gold, I wonder is this at all possible in BtS modding? In this mod so far, in general I often found it easy to get more than enough energy for my needs; maybe this is because of the new maintenance cost system I'll have to read more about.

As I think someone else posted earlier, maybe consider re-including Roads with Doctrine:Mobility? They were available early in SMAC, and it's a long wait for Maglev technology - especially if movement costs in fungus were increased a bit, roads can make an interesting tradeoff between unit mobility / hooking up resources vs angering Planet with more construction.

 

[self biased]

are there any other victories available other than the diplomatic victory and the rocshambeaux victory?

 

[Maniac]

a few screenshots and a save game that might be useful to you.

Thanks!

(how was that done, through a Python check?)

SDK

are there any other victories available other than the diplomatic victory and the rocshambeaux victory?

Rocshambeaux?
The most realistic ones are Domination, Diplomatic and Interstellar Gate.

I also want to add Transcendence, but that will first require AI improvements. (see the flavour or gameplay poll)

 

[Teodosio]

- A minor problem, because you can use the show-ressoruce-overlay, but anyway: The Brown Algae ressource is sometimes very hard to spot. The picture shows it on Highlands/Rocky Arid.

I have made a modification to the algae resources in order to make them larger and more visible on the map. Preview is attached.
I have changed in the file:
CIV4ArtDefines_Bonus.xml
the line:
<fScale>0.5</fScale>
to:
<fScale>0.9</fScale>
(this makes the resources bigger)

Maniac if you like the change you could implement it in the mod.

 

[self biased]

The most realistic ones are Domination, Diplomatic and Interstellar Gate.

I also want to add Transcendence, but that will first require AI improvements. (see the flavour or gameplay poll)

is the IG win with the subspace generators?

it will let me build the fifth one, but then deletes one so i'm stuck at four.

 

[Maniac]

Maniac if you like the change you could implement it in the mod.

Thanks, I'll do it for the next patch.

it will let me build the fifth one, but then deletes one so i'm stuck at four.

This I have also fixed for the next patch. In the meantime, I hereby officially declare you the winner of your game.

 

[Cosmic Fox]

Hi Maniac, I'm back playing again ^_^. I formatted installed Vista 64bit OS, now I will find out if this will crash less.

I found this bug a bit ago, but forgot to mention it. Beginning of game you graciously allow us to have supply pods. If you change one into a former, it has to be manually controlled, no automation icons and no shortcuts work. Repeated this bug every game I played.

 

[Milaga]

Been playing off and on for the last week and I've a few bits of feedback.

First of all, I've got a CtD while WoC. I tried rolling back a few turns but it always happens at the end of turn 185. I played around in the WB but I'm not familiar enough with the mod to know what might be wrong. I thought it may have something to do with New Jerusalem's borders about to push back the Native borders but I pumped up the culture in the native lands and it still crashed. Save enclosed.

I also seem to get a lot of random CtDs at random times. Anywhere from mousing over plots to opening windows.

• Religions - Apart from the +2 shift for adopting a religion present in a city there isn't much benefit to it. I personally don't think adopting a religion is worth the faction hit I'll take against civs with opposing religions. In addition, I find it very unsettling that you don't get a free disciple when discovering a tech for a religion, just for founding it. If you don't found any religion at all you don't have any control over. I'm sure this was intentional but is there a reason why? Some of them are quite powerful just to have in your city.
• Planet Attitude - This is maybe something else I don't understand very well. There seems to be a tipping point. Specifically if you can stay in the green PA the planet seems to like you. Fungal blooms rarely happen and if they do it's on the border of a neighbor. The native life seems to go after the other civ instead. Therefore fungi in and near your borders is safe for you. This ups your planet attitude some more and endangers your neighbors. It also happens to bring culture as well. If you can stay in the positive numbers of planet attitude you also get a power/culture boost. Even 1/turn is more than enough to win an expansion war ... which can net you more fungal lands and more planet attitude etc ... Nevermind that positive PA will let you have native pets as well, perfect for dealing with the more tech advanced civ armies. I haven't seen the AI able to counter this strategy at all. All too often I see other civs surrounded by fungus with badly negative planet attitudes.
• Voice of the Planet - This brings me to this puppy. It seems to be the most powerful religion hands down. Not only is it the first available it's disciples are cheap but the White Pines is incredibly good. If you own it you are basically getting 2PA per new city (4 if you are Dierdra). When I first started playing I always went for this and I crushed. Looking for a challenge I upped the difficulty and Dierdra was always my primary contender (although occasionally she had a bad start and the University dude was score leader.) I'm sure there are counters to the VotP rush that someone can point out. Although it is one of the holy shrines to build, its far superior to the others. I suggest halving the PA bonus for the shrine.
• Civ Flavour - I find the differences between the civs is very minor. Except for their diplomatic preferences there isn't much real difference. Any plans to add unique units or buildings or add traits?
• Civ Leaders - I noticed in the Datalinks there were a lot of other civ leaders but they don't seem to be active. It makes it somewhat troublesome to play with more than seven civs at a time. It's a pain to figure out exactly which Yang is demanding I convert to Police State all the time. Any plan to add them in? Or any of the SMAX factions? If you'd like I could suggestion some separate civ/leader changes.
• Commerce Bonuses/Yields - The appearance of a 5 plot is identical to a 10 plot. The large energy icons must stack on top of each other and not tile like the smaller icons. The additional energy resource is fairly large and obscures a lot of the plot. Perhaps it can be toned down? It's also a bit annoying to see these and the additional mineral resources when you enable resource popups. There are so many of them and it's quite obvious where they are by appearance (unlike most of the algae.) Is there a way to keep them from having popup flags?
• Scientists and Hackers - I'm a bit puzzled at the lack of Scientist GP. In fact, you won't be seeing any of them at all until late game unless you get the Human Genome Project. This flies in the face of what I see as the obvious GP choice in Planetfall. Do you try to get an early great scientist for an Academy and increased general science output or do you try for another one to lightbulb a tech or build a holy shrine? Most civs however get an early great hacker, which I don't think can lightbulb anything early game, so it gets burnt for a wonder. This ensures they get another great hacker next time around. I like that you have a variety available early, but all I really see out there are hackers. In addition, I find it very annoying that I have to take all my cities off of auto management. As soon as they pop it always seems to be a new hacker instead of a workable plot or even a genejacked citizen. I haven't played for long but on more than a few occaisions I got a great hacker instead of the GP I was trying for because the pool got diluted by my lack of micromanaging.
• Espionage - With all these great hackers is there anything new up with Espionage in Planetfall?

Phew, that's all I can think of for now. Thanks for a great mod!