v88 Playthroughs - Greece and Native Americans (and briefly Siam)

georgestow

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I am aware that v90 has since come out but I've not yet upgraded (will do momentarily!) and still need to provide feedback from my first playthroughs on v88. These comments are split across multiple posts

I've played one game to completion as Greece, and then started two other games as Siam, and as the Native Americans. During the Greece playthrough I remembered to make notes but neglected to get many screenshots, whereas for the other two, I remembered to get screenshots but neglected taking notes - so I shall piece together what I have! I have also gone back to some of the saves made part-way through the playthroughs to get some images. I hope that some of this feedback is useful and am pleased to have been able to play this mod, having enjoyed the Civ III version of Rhye's so much before!


Installation and Mod Compatibility

Had to totally uninstall and reinstall Civ V in order to get this mod to work. Not sure why, but have now re-installed all the previous mods I had and seems to be working alright now mostly. Mod seems to work compatibly with the InfoAddict mod, which is nice to have, although it would be good if there was a way to allow InfoAddict to include the Rhye's victory conditions.

Have had save files not working with the game crashing and the error message below, but I'm sure I've had this with other mods, and the autosaves are typically my saviour (always set to save every turn!).

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Greece

Wanted to play as a civ that would be around from the early game right through to the end, so Greece seemed like a good fit. Blissfully unaware of the different Role Playing Victory (RPV) ways of winning the game, and not realising Greece did not have a unique RPV implemented yet.

For those civs that start early like Greece, the beginning of the game feels very empty - even more so than a normal game of civ V. Until other civs spawn, there could stand to be more city states/minor civs/barbarians around, to give the start some further intrigue.

There are a number of civilopedia areas that are mislabelled or incorrect, such as the Code of Laws splash text being incorrect and civilopedia entries missing context. Additionally the tech tree shows needing Engineering to research Guillds, but that was incorrect. But I assume that these aesthetic areas would be updated once the game gets to a more finalised state.

I noted there was wheat on a forest tile in the northern Egypt, which was strange.

Notably, Islam was founded as a religion by Egypt in 1230BC. Would have been nice if this was something like Egyptian Polytheism instead, with Islam reserved to be implemented by Arabia (or whoever is in that vicinity) at a later date, closer to the actual founding of the religion. The reformation belief was adopted immediately upon its founding (the same happened for Hinduism in India), indicating that the they had both reached that level of the Piety tree before founding.

By the time I was able to found a religion (after the head start of Egypt), it was incredibly difficult to get it off the ground, as the Egyptian religion was firmly cemented in the local area. Once Arabia came into the game with its own religion (Buddhism!), it then starting competing for religious power. Eventually however, by holding out for a Great Prophet and taking advantage of the new European civs spawning without religion in the middle ages. I was eventually able to get my religion well-used.

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Researching technology was very slow, as was city growth - but culture and researching new policies was not adjusted to be in-scale with this. By the end of the game I had unlocked almost all policies except for the Ideology policies, which I was held back on by slow technological progress. Growth was also a big issue, and the cities were unable to gain additional population at an at all reasonable rate later on in the game. Western Europe certainly got a nice buff from the grassland improving later on, but the Mediterranean remained rather stagnant. Also, because of the slow technological growth and lots of turns, I was able to get all cities to build (effectively) all buildings, which removes a sense of the opportunity cost of pursuing one route or another in each city, as everything can be constructed in all of the cities.


The ability for city states to shrink to just a single tile in size was a fun and noted feature, especially for crowded Europe. However there was an incident where I had land (including a citadel) directly adjacent to a Pirate stronghold, and when that stronghold was destroyed, all land ownership in the surrounding 6 tiles was nullified, resulting in my land and citadel now becoming unowned. It is noted that Pirate strongholds cannot be captured.

I used the 5-turn plan feature to try and mitigate against collapse, but am still very unclear on how it works, what effects it has, how to impact on the stability of each category, how stability relates to collapse (I did collapse once or twice as Greece!), etc. I also think it would be good if a notification is received at the end of each 5-year plan period - assuming that it does work, it is not clear why the player would not want to use it at every opportunity.

The fact that Diplomacy only works for civs you are currently nearby to in the early-to-mid game is a great touch, but it would be good if there was a notification to let you know when this changes.

I noted a couple of barbarian encampments in central Africa that were directly adjacent to each other and both empty, which was a bit strange. Also I think Africa would generally benefit from having more civs based in it from the middle ages (e.g. Mali, Kongo).

In this playthrough, the Celts were a massive pain for the Romans to deal with, and Rome consequently never really got off the ground as a power. Also, as Greece, having your territory constantly yoinked away to form the Byzantines and then the Ottomans, then whoever is deciding to respawn at any given time, is initially frustrating. But each subsequent respawning, you as the player are stronger, and because the AI always come back as 'at war' with whoever last killed them, and they rarely respawn with any decent units, it becomes trivial in the late-game to recapture cities. But the constant capturing and recapturing does impact on the general growth of the civ. Although looking back at it, it is fun to see just how many different configurations of my little Greek empire happened throughout the game. It is unclear what parameters make a civ spawn or respawn - is it entirely down to certain dates? Or does the stability of existing civs in the area have an effect? Similarly, the dates at which locked wars are instigated by the game, and at which peace occurs - are these entirely linked to dates or are they based on stability or other concepts?

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One Germany came into the game, it was obvious they were the biggest threat. They quickly wiped out France and dominated Europe for the 1800s, with their RPV points being the highest of anyone. France did reappear briefly but (much like the late-game reappearances of the Ottomans for me), they were defeated by the Germans again within a few turns. It was a similar story with Spain, although I ended up liberating one city each of theirs from the Germans, so both struggled on as tiny powers throughout most of the game, sandwiched within the German empire. It was clear from Germany's quicker technology in the late game and bigger miltary that I couldn't even try to compete militarily past the early 1900s. It would be nice perhaps to have liberating civs and bringing them back from the dead rewarded somehow in the victory points. Bismark also loves stabbing civs in the back! Always straight from a friendship pact into war or something similar!

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Although I still was not aware of how other civ's RPVs were being calculated, so it is difficult to know how to play against them! It was during this late medieval/early industrial era that I realised that the only way Greece could win was by gaining Wonders. I was also by now comparing the RPV scores for Greece against the normal points and was realising which categories were factored to produced the RPV score and by how much - with Wonders retaining their normal score exactly. I think it could be helpful to have a RPV advisor, like the other in-game advisors, who can provide some direction and assistance on achieving your RPV, especially for players using a civ for the first time.


I understand that archaeologists have been removed from the game, but this nerfs wonders like The Louvre and other cultural late game concepts involving artifacts. Would be good to see this rebalanced.

Despite European colonization of the Americas being well underway by 1878, there were no religious cities, except for one Dutch colony in South America. Given the driving force of religion in the narratives of colonization, it would be good to see more effort from the AI to ensure their new colonies are religious. Also I noted that the English cities in the central America retained their Maya names.

When Italy came back as a minor civ in the late game, the Papal States stayed, which massively divided up the territory and made Italy an easy target. It would have been good to see the Papal States reduced to just a tile or a few, rather than retaining their entire city.

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Dead civs always remain on the trade options with other civs - I haven't yet figured out how to exploit this by trading to go to war with a civ that's already dead, but presume this could occur if not dealt with!

I also realised that I was no longer able to construct Shrines or Temples in the late game! Is this a feature or a bug - I had not realised that these buildings had an expiry date.
 
Eventually (after an incredibly long game lasting all the way into 2092AD) by getting enough Wonders to get the RPV points I needed. This strategy involved beelining for the techs that gave wonders in the industrial era (where I was already well behind Germany), trying to build them, and capturing a few choice capital cities from Persia and Arabia, which had a few Wonders in them from the early game. Unfortunately some Wonders had been lost along the way through the constant ripples of history, but I guess that's part of the game! Overall I get the impression that Greece is supposed to be played with the knowledge about Wonders being the best route to victory from the early game, and that if I had pursued that route sooner, the game would not have been so lengthy. The late game does feel a bit sparse unless you are fighting, especially with technology being so difficult to research and so few remaining civs having a viable path to victory (see the graph below - it is clear from c. 1910 that only myself, Germany or by some miracle Arabia could win). However I did enjoy the game and finally getting the victory was massively rewarding.

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Siam

I started my next game as Siam, who I noted also does not have a RPV implemented. I was provided a fair few setters to start with but the game so far is fighting off nearby barbarians and pirates, whilst getting to know and becoming aware of the superpowers of India and Japan either side of me. I note I also receive RPV points from happiness, and this seems like the only way to get anywhere as Siam, so I expect this game will be focused around securing luxury resources and similar.


Native Americans

I wanted to play as a civ that had an implemented RPV and recalled seeing Native Americans listed on the forum as having been recently implemented. This has been a wholly different experience.

The Native American RPV relies on land in North America being free (I am unclear if this includes or excludes land owned by Native Americans themselves), and awards up to 5 points per turn if the land is sufficiently free. Native Americans unit spawn in a few places in North America, and these can be used to wander around and kill off the arriving European settlers. This gives you a glutton of workers that are basically only any good for exploring the continent because you do not yet own any cities. I assumed the purpose would be to gain a city by capture or possibly by a late settler spawn, and then to be able to build units from there - however once I captured Toronto, I found that despite producing science, I was unable to research anything or progress. This locks off a huge part of the appeal of playing a game of civ, as I was only able to build archers, warriors or workers. As the European powers then grew in power, I had less and less opportunity to capture any of their cities as I could not get any better units, instead becoming limited to raiding any incoming settlers and generally obstructing them. I have been able to capture some additional land through expending Great Generals.

At a certain point, new units stop spawning for the Native Americans, after which I presume it is assumed by the game that it is possible to resupply the army from any captured cities. However when limited to only producing archers and warriors, and going up against Gatling Guns, there is only so far that strength in numbers will go! After a while, it became a stalemate, with me unable to have a good shot at capturing any more European cities and unable to progress - but still gaining 2-3 points per turn. I assume if I wait long enough, I could win, but I have no means to affect the speed of the victory.

This also locks off being able to access a courthouse to get rid of occupied city status, and locks off building the longhouse or constructing any other units except warriors and archers. It also locks off the technology for trapping, which I would have assumed would be an instrumental part of a Native American game for trade purposes. Perhaps this no-tech progression was a bug of my game but it seems like it removes a lot of the potential enjoyment of the game.

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