v99 Netherlands (sort of)

Jkchart

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This is more of my thoughts on how might be best to buff the Dutch (and possibly Portuguese) after a brief but frustrating game as the Netherlands than a true write up because the game was far too brief. My frustrations are a fewfold, and I will list them below, as well as proposed solutions that can apply to them (and possibly Portugal) to help them survive in the very crowded and competitive Europe.

- Number 1: you are too weak to deal with the many enemies who want to pounce on you within the first ten to twenty turns, so you cannot establish yourself. This is compounded by the Viking minor civ roaming around and raiding randomly.
- Number 2: the starting gold deficit is extremely difficult to deal with when you’re split between improving that, city yields, happiness, and defense.
- Number 3: the happiness situation is abysmal as you have no luxuries, not even a single one to trade away to benefit from their power, and no good access.

So I’ve given it some thought and had a couple of solutions for these points.
- Number 1: reiterating my suggestion for Walls in their starting cities, which was received well it seems. However I also think that the starting units that Netherlands receive should be a higher tier than they are. Currently it’s three Composite Bowmen and a Horseman. I’d give them straight crossbowmen and instead of a Horseman a Pikemen. Their starting situation is difficult enough and the tech level close enough to these units when they spawn to warrant them having better than Classical Age units. I also think a Trireme is warranted for naval defense and exploration of the coastlines, and emphasizes their naval nature.
- Number 2: for gold, I think just spawn a Caravan or Trade Ship immediately to help with the bleeding. It’s a good solution since otherwise you really don’t have the production, gold, or priority to start the vital gold trade before you are attacked. Adding a starting work boat for those fish would also help with growth and commerce. If all this is too much, take away one of the starting settlers to balance it (though I don’t think it is).
- Number 3: I think take a page out of Indonesia’s book and give Netherlands two copies of one of the luxuries like Jewelry or Porcelain (or find a new one for the mod) in their capital would be ideal. That way they have something to trade but you don’t have to try and fit it on the map. This is of course not an issue for Portugal since it has access to Wine and Whales easily.

Anyways those are my thoughts after trying these difficult starts to make them somewhat more survivable.
 
I just played a standard difficulty Portugal game and I had no issue with Spain. I developed a navy and made friends with the Turks and English (classic, I know) and coordinated a combined declaration of war with Suleiman, using my galleasses to take two of their coastal cities, leaving Madrid to eventually flip to the English, who then decided they hate me. I do have one question, though, what does "first in Japan" mean? Do you need to have a troop on a core island, or can a boat trigger this just by reaching the shore?
 
This is more of my thoughts on how might be best to buff the Dutch (and possibly Portuguese) after a brief but frustrating game as the Netherlands than a true write up because the game was far too brief. My frustrations are a fewfold, and I will list them below, as well as proposed solutions that can apply to them (and possibly Portugal) to help them survive in the very crowded and competitive Europe.

- Number 1: you are too weak to deal with the many enemies who want to pounce on you within the first ten to twenty turns, so you cannot establish yourself. This is compounded by the Viking minor civ roaming around and raiding randomly.
- Number 2: the starting gold deficit is extremely difficult to deal with when you’re split between improving that, city yields, happiness, and defense.
- Number 3: the happiness situation is abysmal as you have no luxuries, not even a single one to trade away to benefit from their power, and no good access.

So I’ve given it some thought and had a couple of solutions for these points.
- Number 1: reiterating my suggestion for Walls in their starting cities, which was received well it seems. However I also think that the starting units that Netherlands receive should be a higher tier than they are. Currently it’s three Composite Bowmen and a Horseman. I’d give them straight crossbowmen and instead of a Horseman a Pikemen. Their starting situation is difficult enough and the tech level close enough to these units when they spawn to warrant them having better than Classical Age units. I also think a Trireme is warranted for naval defense and exploration of the coastlines, and emphasizes their naval nature.
- Number 2: for gold, I think just spawn a Caravan or Trade Ship immediately to help with the bleeding. It’s a good solution since otherwise you really don’t have the production, gold, or priority to start the vital gold trade before you are attacked. Adding a starting work boat for those fish would also help with growth and commerce. If all this is too much, take away one of the starting settlers to balance it (though I don’t think it is).
- Number 3: I think take a page out of Indonesia’s book and give Netherlands two copies of one of the luxuries like Jewelry or Porcelain (or find a new one for the mod) in their capital would be ideal. That way they have something to trade but you don’t have to try and fit it on the map. This is of course not an issue for Portugal since it has access to Wine and Whales easily.

Anyways those are my thoughts after trying these difficult starts to make them somewhat more survivable.
It is strange getting 3 settlers as the Dutch because they are completely blocked from a second city unless they go to western Poland. Possibly the starting location should be shifted north 1 space so that you have room for 2 core Dutch cities? They also definitely need some help with regards to sailing because their path to Asia is crowded by the French, English, Spanish, and possibly Vikings.
 
Futhermore, I've played the Dutch a bunch and I see that the only good place to expand as them is the Nordics, settling Kalmar for the adjacent salt and fur, and Narvik for its own fur and large iron deposit. I would have conquered Oslo but I decided I would try to ally with them for their silver. Copenhagen spawned as well as part of a minor polity with Oslo. I had a nice three-city empire going on while I mounted a successful scouting expedition across Asia to meet (surprisingly) Japan, who had conquered China for a cool 100 points. I then had Kalmar secede to form Sweden; but then I snatched one of Bismarck's three cities after dogpiling them with the much stronger Rome about to take Berlin. I found politics were very important; I made sure all my wars were 2 against 1, and rarely did anything on my side, aside from my recent conquest of Erfurt. Interestingly, Spain collapsed, so Portugal is our Iberian power.

Regarding Scouting, and Scouts: Have you planned to introduce an upgrade for the scout? It would be more on brand to have a slightly stronger unit that could attack but still had great vision. My suggestion is that you could upgrade them to a Horseman that gets defense from terrain, unlocked by some tech, which specifically could upgrade to Cavalry later. I'm a little sad there is not a bifurcated heavy cavalry / light cavalry path in V. Ideally Scout would follow the light cavalry / recon tree.

Scout in my alternative pathing would go: Scout --> defensive horseman (with vision) --> Cavalry (with vision) --> helicopter (with vision) or Paratrooper?
 

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He's coming to Civ V? :) If you could borrow it from this mod that would hopefully be easy https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=125185625
 
oooh, very cool, I didn't know it was available.
Actually in v100 I added the drone as a modern recon unit.
Maybe that upgrade chain could involve the airship... not sure.
Is it a suicide drone like we see in Ukraine or is it more of a spy plane?
 
the intention was to offer something that's really being used nowadays. But I don't know if it's possible to make a suicide unit? And also to let the AI understand its use?
Hmm, you could set it at really low health and have it have a buff that it always fights as if it's at full health? Japan had that buff in one of the editions of Civ.
However, I don't know how AI would use it, seeing as sometimes when playing against the AI, it seemed to dance around taking damage until it was able to kill one of my units, then it struck.
You could also exempt war weariness / happiness penalties when a drone dies, incentivizing the AI to use them with reckless abandon
 
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btw in civ3 RoC we had the kamikaze. Honestly I don't remember if it was self destructing or not
 
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