Vaccine Suspicion thread (split from Trump in Charge)

[Archon8]

So I'm guessing you're rather strongly opposed to restricting access to gender-affirming medical care, then.

Adults should have access to whatever care they desire. For minors, if they have a condition known as gender dysphoria, then psychiatric intervention should be attempted, in order to resolve whatever issues they have with the least amount of treatment possible. This is the standard of care I support for any condition for any person, and is part of the intent of the Hippocratic Oath. If this intervention is unsuccessful, then I support the least amount of treatment that could be characterized as irreversible as possible. I generally believe informed consent can occur among minors to choose medications that either delay puberty or modify their hormone levels, so if it is deemed medically beneficial and consent is given, then I am amenable to it being prescribed. I do not support irreversible medical surgery for minors for a dysphoria diagnosis.

 

[Lexicus]

Intentionally coughing on someone while having covid would be a serious criminal act, worthy of jail time. But if you're on a subway car, that's not really a concern for me. Others can wear masks if they desire additional protection.

This is not serious thinking about risk and moral responsibility. If I never get tested for covid, so that I can't "intentionally" cough on someone while having it, would that constitute negligence?

 

[Birdjaguar]

If you want to say it is the moral and ethical choice to either self quarantine or wear full protective gear if you know you have Covid then you very well may be correct. I certainly wouldn't argue against that. My concern is the role of the government though in dictating medical choices, and then restricting freedom based on medical decisions that people make. Compounding this is the role of the government in stifling dissent against its mandates. The concept of freedom of speech is entirely designed to protect citizens from reprisal from the government for criticizing the government. We saw the US government under Biden actively pressure social media companies to deplatform citizens who dissented from the government, which I consider to be an unacceptable breach of civil liberties.

Does free speech include lying about cures or spreading known misinformation to others? Should a person [of influence?] be able to make false claims to the public about important health matters?

 

[Archon8]

This is not serious thinking about risk and moral responsibility. If I never get tested for covid, so that I can't "intentionally" cough on someone while having it, would that constitute negligence?

Intentionally coughing on someone is already a crime. Doing so while knowingly having Covid should make it a worse crime. It's like how having unprotected sex is not a crime, but doing it while knowing you have HIV and not disclosing it to your partner is a crime.

Does free speech include lying about cures or spreading known misinformation to others? Should a person [of influence?] be able to make false claims to the public about important health matters?

Yes.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Intentionally coughing on someone is already a crime. Doing so while knowingly having Covid should make it a worse crime. It's like how having unprotected sex is not a crime, but doing it while knowing you have HIV and not disclosing it to your partner is a crime.



Yes.

What about controlling major media (radio, newspapers, social media, TV etc.) so that one can spread lies and misinformation more easily?

 

[Archon8]

What about controlling major media (radio, newspapers, social media, TV etc.) so that one can spread lies and misinformation more easily?

A big problem is how you define lies or misinformation. Who makes this determination? How is it enforced? What about someone like me, who says that vaccines should not be forced on people? That is neither a lie nor misinformation, it is merely a political opinion. There are natural checks and balances in our society that allow people to discourage others from promoting nonsense... you can stop reading a paper, stop watching a news channel, or vote against a politician you find distasteful. Having some large department that has the power to arbitrate facts regarding controversial matters is too close to the Ministry of Truth, and I do not support any government department having this much power.

 

[Lexicus]

Intentionally coughing on someone is already a crime. Doing so while knowingly having Covid should make it a worse crime. It's like how having unprotected sex is not a crime, but doing it while knowing you have HIV and not disclosing it to your partner is a crime.

So should it be legally required to get tested for these diseases and others? How often? Who pays for the testing?

 

[Archon8]

So should it be legally required to get tested for these diseases and others? How often? Who pays for the testing?

No, of course not.

 

[Lexicus]

No, of course not.

lmao

 

[Gorbles]

In my opinion, you cannot completely know what potential negative effects that vaccinations will have on people until several years after they are administered.

Sure, you can have that opinion. That has very little to do with the previous claim.

 

[Archon8]

Were tested

Facts and reality.

Typical vaccine testing takes 5-10 years. You cannot know immediately that a vaccine is safe. It is scientifically impossible. You are engaged in lies and misinformation which contravene facts and reality, and thus should be silenced by the government. Oh, I guess we shouldn't give the government the power to do that after all.

 

[tjs282]

Typical vaccine testing takes 5-10 years. You cannot know immediately that a vaccine is safe. It is scientifically impossible. You are engaged in lies and misinformation which contravene facts and reality, and thus should be silenced by the government. Oh, I guess we shouldn't give the government the power to do that after all.

mRNA vaccine technology started development over 30 years ago, and had been in use for nearly 20 years prior to COVID. So, yes, tested and proven.

mRNA vaccine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On topic (though likely connected to the above):

https://www.science.org/content/article/trump-hits-nih-devastating-freezes-meetings-travel-communications-and-hiring

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Typical vaccine testing takes 5-10 years. You cannot know immediately that a vaccine is safe. It is scientifically impossible. You are engaged in lies and misinformation which contravene facts and reality

The vaccine was tested.

Gorbles: What untested treatment?
You: COVID vaccines

You know what that is?

lies and misinformation which contravene facts and reality

Facts and reality:
Clinical trials for COVID-19 vaccines were carried out before they were approved by governments and rolled-out to the public. Pfizer’s trial enrolled over 45,000 participants across the globe and Oxford recruited over 23,000 people in the UK, Brazil, and South Africa.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Woo vaccines, they are a deep state conspiracy and nothing good has ever come from them. Better solutions for COVID (which the WHO hid from us) were injecting bleach or inserting a 100W lightbulb through the anus. All Trump supporters should follow their leader suggestion and try it.

 

[Archon8]

The vaccine was tested.

Gorbles: What untested treatment?
You: COVID vaccines

You know what that is?

Facts and reality:
Clinical trials for COVID-19 vaccines were carried out before they were approved by governments and rolled-out to the public. Pfizer’s trial enrolled over 45,000 participants across the globe and Oxford recruited over 23,000 people in the UK, Brazil, and South Africa.

I guess we're talking in circles. My position is that it is impossible to know the long term effects of vaccines until several years after they have been administered. Regardless of whether this is literally true, it is still a reasonable position for someone to hold, and they should not be forced to be vaccinated or punished in some fashion by society for failing to do so, particularly when the source of the assurance of safety are large pharmaceutical companies, which have frequently been hostile to the public interest.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I guess we're talking in circles.

Ok. Lets simplify. Answer me this: were the Covid vaccines tested?

 

[tjs282]

The long term effect of a vaccine is usually that you don't actually die horribly from or live permanently disabled by whatever disease you were vaccinated against.

 

[Snowygerry]

"several years after they have been administered" that's now isn't it ? And what are the long term effects of the vaccines ?

 

[Gorbles]

I guess we're talking in circles. My position is that it is impossible to know the long term effects of vaccines until several years after they have been administered. Regardless of whether this is literally true, it is still a reasonable position for someone to hold, and they should not be forced to be vaccinated or punished in some fashion by society for failing to do so, particularly when the source of the assurance of safety are large pharmaceutical companies, which have frequently been hostile to the public interest.

Likewise, it's reasonable to hold the position that if you get me or mine ill, I will hold you personally responsible, and I will in fact believe that there should be consequences for such a lack of care taken (regardless of my ability, or more accurately lack thereof, to enforce anything of the kind).

The problem is these two positions cause friction, and as such in order to reconcile it within society as a whole, the law has to land somewhere. The law can decide "consequences", or the law can decide "no consequences". If the law decides "no consequences" then, historically, people tend to take injustice into their own hands. Maybe you prefer such a lawless society.

 

[Archon8]

"several years after they have been administered" that's now isn't it ? And what are the long term effects of the vaccines ?

My position is not that the Covid vaccines were unsafe, rather that it was a reasonable position to choose to not immediately be vaccinated by them.

Likewise, it's reasonable to hold the position that if you get me or mine ill, I will hold you personally responsible, and I will in fact believe that there should be consequences for such a lack of care taken (regardless of my ability, or more accurately lack thereof, to enforce anything of the kind).

The problem is these two positions cause friction, and as such in order to reconcile it within society as a whole, the law has to land somewhere. The law can decide "consequences", or the law can decide "no consequences". If the law decides "no consequences" then, historically, people tend to take injustice into their own hands. Maybe you prefer such a lawless society.

The law is, and should remain, that as an adult it is your personal choice whether or not to receive vaccinations. I am strongly opposed to the government being able to punish citizens for healthcare choices. And before you ask - I am pro choice, but not to a sufficient degree to vote Democratic in the last election.

Ok. Lets simplify. Answer me this: were the Covid vaccines tested?

I said several times that in my opinion it takes multiple years to adequately test vaccines.