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Vaclav Havel dies

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Pangur Bán, Dec 18, 2011.

  1. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    If Algeroth doesn't do it, I will. Just not right now. (In short, the author shows extreme left-wing bias combined with utter ignorance of how the Czech political system works, and half of what he wrote there didn't even happen. It's the sort of "commentary" that people who know something about the real situation tend to react to with phrases like "WTF?!" or other expression of stunned disbelief.)
     
  2. Tani Coyote

    Tani Coyote Son of Huehuecoyotl

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    Unless there's proof Czechoslovakia was a liberal paradise with regular, free elections, I'll continue to call them tyrants. Having a socialist economy without democracy is contrary to what socialism is about - the liberation of the worker and the citizenry.

    Oh, understandably. It was that way in most Communist nations to my knowledge - the People had no real voice, but they did have a basic modicum of services.

    The good thing about the democratic governments, though, is that the People could, if they so desired, pressure the politicians to restore such social services. Embrace what Americans consider socialism, rather than what Europeans consider socialism, if you will.

    Though to be fair, in some places, it's possible it hasn't changed. From all I hear in Russia, they just replaced bureaucratic oligarchs with plutocratic oligarchs, all under the guise of "democracy." In this case - a decline in quality of life, and no real improvement in political voice - the Soviet system naturally sounds better. Even moreso when one considers that post-Stalin, life in the USSR wasn't that repressive(from what I know, anyway).

    My bad, I merely couldn't think of anyone else off the top of my head.

    Though Lenin himself wasn't that bad from all I know, not any worse than most revolutionaries. He overthrew the Czarist dictatorship, and had things gone differently, his system could have made Russia a better place. Unfortunately, as often happens, the movement lost sight of itself once its leader was gone...
     
  3. Mechanicalsalvation

    Mechanicalsalvation -

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    Thats the power of lie, it can make you doubt the reality nicely. Nothing more or less.

    I dont think you can say he deposed the Stalinist but he played admirable part in it. Without Gorbachev he would have probably get rotten in prison.

    He may have come pretty close though. Or to put it otherwise. How many saints would have remained saints in his position? But you have mentioned something alike yourself...

    Well stop reading drivels so you can stop making ridiculos and ******** posts...

    Yeah, I have heard that after the North has beated South in Americas civil war and the slaves were granted freedom some of them wanted to go back to their old ways of life... But what does that prove?

    Yes, talk is cheap. But compare to what? If you tell that to a priest in church he may keep his mouth shut but then who is going to think about Christ? :lol:
    The fact that people hold high some ideals and do gave them great value (to what extent is personal thing and differs person by person of course) is pretty good manifestation and necessary step to even greater goal...
     
  4. Alassius

    Alassius Flame Warlord

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    On the topic of being sanctimonious, I wrote this drivel on another site. Perhaps you might enjoy it?


    (In reply to someone who claimed "amartya sen, that well known communist, estimates that 100 million died in india as a result of their not following the maoist development path")

     
  5. Algeroth

    Algeroth 8 and 1/2

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    Okay, let's look into this

    No, and nobody demands that from you. But you could stop lying about him.

    Probably true

    True

    If this is how your kind calls someone with postmodern, slightly new-age, trandsedental religious believes, than yes, it's true.

    Are we talking about someone who refused to ban the communist party and suffered hit in popularity because of it?

    The author is either mistaking Václav Havel with Václav Klaus, or is lying. Havel was a staunch supporter of social and cultural rights, fair trade, social state, green economy...etc.

    Yes, he was from bourgeois family and it could be that it was "fervently anticommunist". Probably true

    No, he denounced today global civilization's "cult of objectivity and statistical average". He said that many of democracy mechanisms are based on that and need to change.

    Not True.

    True, he was a kind of elitist. But the wording is making him look like some fascist.

    True. This is one of the criticism of Havel based in reality. He never come with a way how to transform his idealistic visions to reality.

    I would say not true, but I'll give you a benefit of doubt here. Link it, or it didn't happen.

    He sold weapons? That is implying that it was Havel who owned weapons factories by himself. Which is obviously ridiculous. Or it is implying that it is president who have responsibility for international contracts, not PM. As Winner said, the autor doesn't understand the Czech(oslovakian) political system.

    True. (But as a sidenote, he didn't buy anything)

    Undoubtedly true. But it should be noted that it was 200 members of chemical defense unit. Also, this is one of the point where I understand the leftist critique. But could I have a question: What else should be done with Saddam?

    LOL. Source?

    Implying that he was some "pro-capitalist". Which is not true.

    True

    Possibly true. But database of his articles and speeches is still not working so I cannot validate it.

    What? This just never happened. Period. Unless we are talking about some alternative history.

    Same reaction as above. Just...what?

    True. And also Nazism and Fascism. But you are not protesting that, are you?

    Probably true, that was in the era when Czech presidents were afraid to not sign a law and Havel really disliked the idea of confronting the parliament.

    And as our Constitutional court ruled, it is totally cool with our constitution, because its Article 9 says that any change of fundamentals of democratic state based on rule of law is forbidden.

    Not communist as a whole, but members of former State Security and high ranked members of communist party. That is one hell of a difference. BTW, what is your stance on denazification?

    True

    There was never anything like "Havel's government". It is PM, not president who governs and creates government here. Really, the author doesn't have a clue about how things work here. But, yes, it is True that this law passed.

    No, it was now illegal to propagate a revolution that would dispose the rich of their money, not criticise it. And no, it was and it is justifiable.

    :confused: WHAT? Havel? The man who viewed unions as an essential part of the civil society and in many times negotiated with them? I really suspect the author that he is confusing Havel and Klaus. Or he is on drugs.

    :confused::confused: This is just a LIE.

    Sounds more like a Klaus not a Havel to me.

    Well, seeing how he's writing about "Havel's government", I really think he mistake Klaus for Havel. Which means he's an idiot.


    No, under restitution programs, it was returned to previous owners before communist government nationalized them. Under privatization, it was (bar few exceptions) sold do domestic citizens. You may criticize Klaus's voucher privatization for many thing, but it was sold not to capitalist, but to ordinary citizens.

    WHAT A BLATANT LIE! Anybody with the slightest understanding of Czech history or some common sense that isn't blinded by Party's propaganda must see that this is utter bullc*ap.

    True. So what?

    Like with what?

    You mean for all these lies, misunderstandings of how Czech political system works and lies?

    Look, there are many things for which he can be criticized from the left. The Old Left will never stomach his mysticism. Some parts have problems with his bourgeois uprising, some are upset that he helped to break their favourite toy. He considered himself socialist before 1990, but possibly never read a Marx. They have a point that Havel and others were promising democratization, not (market) liberalization. And of course he was an elitist that never really understood the plight of a common man and prefers environment before creation of new jobs.

    And new left could add that in foreign policy, he made some very controversial steps - support for both gulf wars, or for attack on Serbia in last Balkan War.

    But much of the things in this article are either lies or are carefully worded to make him look like a monster with the help of omitting context or some important data. Take for example your statement that from the all countries of OECD it was Czech Republic and Slovakia who undergone that greatest rise of income inequality. That sounds terrible, doesn't it? But for some reason, you have forgot to mention that both countries have still the same level of inequality as Norway. I hoped that this ilustrated the kind of bias that is present in this article.

    Merry Christmas to you all.
     
  6. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    So, the property was returned to owners before 1945, not 1918? If yes, this mistake sounds like typical from Parenti.

    So, did he refuse to ban the Communist party, or did he sign that law? You can't have a Communist party that doesn't advocate Communism.

    Is Communism ban-worthy? What's the history of Czech Communist Party post-1991?

    Sounds like Parenti, again.
     
  7. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Yes. Restitutions were granted to people who lost property after the WW2 (because expropriation started right away, before the Communists seized all the power in the state).

    It was (still is) controversial in many cases since some of the people who want their lands and castles back are Sudeten Germans, who were expelled on the basis of the so-called Beneš's decrees, which unfortunately still are a part of our legal framework. However, many Sudeten Germans were expropriated and expelled illegally even under these decrees.

    This is another good thing Havel did - he went against pretty much all the other Czech political leaders and apologized to the Germans for what happened to them in this country at the end and after WW2 and called for these decrees to be officially repealed.

    AFAIK the law was never even drafted. Havel believed that if we banned the Commies, we'd be doing the same thing they did. Which was one of his mistakes, I believe, but at least he did it because he believed in the ideal of a free, pluralistic society.

    It still exists and consistently wins 12-15% of votes in parliamentary elections. It's become more of a populist anti-system party that thrives on protest votes. Nobody will make a coalition with them, but the Social Democrats sometimes toy with the idea of forming a minority government backed by the Commies.

    Sounds like the guy is a typical American idiot who knows nothing, but likes to write about it a lot.
     
  8. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    <sigh> Winner, you're at it again :rolleyes:
     
  9. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    To supplement what Algeroth wrote:

    Havel advocated the exact opposite of these things. These accusations are nothing but baseless slander. Havel was in fact lambasted by the economically liberal right wing for not being committed enough to free market capitalism. Havel's views were actually close to that of centre-left, meaning he supported very much restrained capitalism that never puts profits above moral values and ethics. For that he was often scorned and sneered at. Also, he was a supporter of the Green party which he even endorsed in their election campaign a few times.

    As Algeroth said, the author probably mistook Václav Havel for Václav Klaus, who's the president now. Oh yes, all these weird central European names, one can't expect an American scholar to distinguish between them...

    Which apparently made him - a child of 12 years of age by the time the Communists seized power in an unconstitutional coup - a class enemy for all perpetuity. Because of course, bourgeois oppression is a genetic trait inherited from parents to their children. The regime thus barred Havel from any form of higher education.

    So, it's not like Havel was raised as an anti-communist. The regime made him into one.

    Coincidentally, Havel's pressure for a morally accountable foreign policy ruined many arms-exporting companies...

    Havel supported the international effort to punish an aggressor denounced as such by the UN security council. Imagine that...

    Havel did actually play with that idea, but not for the reason given. He was dismayed at the post-revolutionary political bickering and constant political deadlock, especially since it was undermining the federation with Slovakia. He believed the system should have been adjusted to restore trust and direct relationship between parliamentarians and their voters and to make it work better. Nothing came out of it, and as a result this political bickering led to the dissolution of Czechoslovakia.

    How can anyone blame Havel for wanting to preserve the country he as the President was sworn to protect is beyond me, but I am probably too bourgeois and fascist to understand Parenti's enlightened logic.

    No such law has ever existed here.

    That's strange, because our previous prime minister was a former Communist party member...

    Of course, I know what the author thinks he's talking about - there is a law preventing former members of the Communist secret police from serving in the government - for a bloody good reason, since they were the scum of the highest order. If I were in charge after 1989, I'd send them all to prison camps to work in uranium mines, which is what the Commies did to their opponents in 1950s.

    Oh yes, supporting democratic opposition around the world counts as "anticummunist propaganda". Speaks volumes about the author's agenda.

    1) That is a lie, you can criticize big moneyed interests as much as you want, and indeed Havel was doing it repeatedly, as a president and after he stepped down. Class hatred in the law means advocating violence to overthrow the democratic political system. It's not in any way different from advocating violence to get rid of an ethnic minority, so the law is perfectly OK.

    2) There was no "Havel's government". Unlike in America, the Czech president doesn't hold actual executive powers. If Parenti fails to understand even the very basics of our political system, how dares he write about it?

    3) Trade unions exist in the Czech Republic and the right of employees to form them is enshrined in the constitution.

    Unlike in America, we actually don't leave young people to "roam the streets" - we have a social security system in place and a moderately effective education system, thanks for looking it up before writing lies, dear author. The SSM was an organization designed to brainwash children into obedient little Communists, and in principle it was similar more to Hitler's Youth than, say, boy scouts or similar organizations. Of course it was dissolved after Czechoslovakia transitioned to democracy.

    No. He's mixing up restitutions with privatisation.

    What previous occupants? The property returned was owned by the STATE, together with everything else - that was how the Socialist system worked, and it's amusing that someone who advocates it doesn't know that. Again, the ignorance of the author is stunning.

    Havel was one of the most selfless, down-to-earth politician this planet has ever seen, and I am not exaggerating here.
     
  10. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    Hey, hey, hey. Hey. Cool it, you guys.
     

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