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Vae Victis - Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Stories & Tales' started by Christophoros, Apr 30, 2008.

  1. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    Edit : This tread is about two games. As the game crashed on me during the first game, it is stuck in 122 bc. I have however started another one, starting on post 29. Thanks,

    Modpack : Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire 275 easy
    Version : the latest : 1.323
    Difficulty : Consul
    Agg : normal AI aggressiveness
    Houserules : I modify the stats of 3 late Roman mounted military units, namely the Comitatenses, the Equus Alarius Germanicus and the Cataphractus. So nothing that will affect the game for a long time.

    Why these settings : They're fairly "easy" and therefore the ones newbies should use and, as my game is intended as a tutorial, it will perfectly suit this purpose.

    Here it goes :

    I start in 275, set 2 cities to legio, all others to fabrica / temple / ferraria. Select Civil engineering and set my slider so I have 25 gpt and civil engineering in 12 turns. I also sell useless moenia in my cities and immediately disband the Eques Alarius Italicus as it's really bad, requires support and will never upgrade .War with Epirus, lucky fights I only lose 2 velites and 2 miles socius.

    273 : Destroy Epirus and, only then do I sign RoP with everyone except Carthago and money floods the streets : up to 757 gold in treasury and 41 gpt. Only Roma went into civil unrest due to war weariness but, of course, ending the war by destroying Epirus makes everything ok again.

    272 : Our "friends" in Carthago decide to demand money, I refuse, they declare war : it's a little early for my taste, means I have to stay on the defensive for a while while my legios heal and finish building roads, but the fact that he declared war is an advantage war weariness wise. Only 1 mammertin is killed in Messana.

    269 : Treasury up to 880 gold, civil engineering will be mine in 6 turns, still at 41 gpt and I've killed a couple of Carthaginian land units at Messana and, with velites bombardment, my triremis greccae have destroyed 2 quinquemris sumna and 2 cumbras. I now have a consular army in Messana and am about to go on the offensive. So far, everything is perfect.
     
  2. CCDK

    CCDK Chieftain

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    great! - thanx! - will be following eagerly - since I always get butchered by Carthage....
     
  3. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    Thanks for the support. Here's the follow up :

    261 : 1328 gold in treasury, 54gpt, first punic war in 10 turns : I have conquered all the Carthaginian cities on Sicily and my 4 triremis, with the help of velites bombardment, have destroyed about 10 ships without a single loss : the key is patience, never leave a ship in the open and only attack injured ships. As for the land battles, it is fairly easy : again, defend for 2 or 3 turns, until there's no more raid, then send a big stack to attack the city just west of Messana, rest, heal, use entertainers to keep the city in order, wait, then attack Agrigentum, and finally Lilybaeum. This last one is tricky, because of the Barca unit. Use velites to knock down the wall.

    253 : 1891 gold in treasury, 100 gpt First punic war in 2 turns. I'm building 1 legio and 1 velites, all other cities still on improvements. Caralia and Olbia conquered (Sardinia)
    Then, something bad happens as Egypt sneak attacks me, but, luckily, I only lose 1 miles socius in Tarentum and their assaults are repulsed.

    250 : 2297 gold in treasury, 70 gpt Cisalpine...wars tech in 11 turns. I have taken Corsica and the very important city of Palmera. I ask for peace with Carthago and I get it in exchange for 50 golds and 9gpt. I'm not building any unit, I have begun work on the Mare Nostrum wonder and am fielding the following : 18 legio 8 Miles socius 4 triremis 3 eques 2 consular armies and something like 20 velites.

    Still at war with Egypt, who brought Aetolia with them, but I don't worry too much. They are far away.
     
  4. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    Now the decisions : where to strike next : there is only one possibility though, when you look at the map : Cisalpine Celts. Why ? because if you eventually want to strike against Western Greeks, you need Genua in order to reach Massilia. And once you take 1 city, why stop there ? So redeployment, healing, road building up to Ravenna and Genua, and then war.

    247 : Peace with Egypt

    245 : War with the Cisalpine begins : I move my units in position and build roads to Genua and Ravenna

    243 : Ravenna is taken. On a separate front, I make peace with Aetolia for 20 gold, 7gpt and 1 worker.

    238 : Cisalpine Celts are history. I have conquered their 3 cities and lost 1 legio. Current state of Roma : 3300 gold in treasury, 68gpt, Praetor in 11 turns and I field the following forces : 20 legio 2 funditores 3 eques 21 velites 10 miles socius 2 consular armies 4 triremis and 1 corvus

    This is, intentionally, a very economically conservative start. As you can see, I always research techs in 12 turns, I have a great gpt and an increasing treasury. Look how I also never spend my gold on anything, as of yet : that's because I'll eventually need to buy 2 or 3 templum in Sicily when I again fight Carthago and, much later, I'll need every sestercius to upgrade my legios and to buy off entire kingdoms (Pergamus, and the two anatolian kingdoms whose names currently elude me (Bithynia and ?) Those two things, upgrade and propaganda, cost a lot and that's why I'm holding on to my gold right now.
     
  5. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    Now, the question : what to do, what to do : traditional move is to go further north and east and attack Illyria. It's a logical move because we want fine timber to build Portus Ostiae and Portus Migrare and Salonae has access to it. It is also a small foe and, although taking all their cities can take time, it is doable if you want but not mandatory. So I again go at war. Direction Salonae

    234 after road building, I get to Salonae and take it. I then make peace with Illyria, because I am running out of time : Hannibal is coming, Carthago is growing in power and I know Illyria will never grow to be a threat so pax it is.

    Now, as this game is more of a tutorial than anything else, I make the next logical traditional move, I move in position to attack the Western Greeks. Why ? Because, in order to be successful against Punic Spain, you need a land route to the Punic cities in the southeast. Most efficient way to do that is by taking Massilia and Narbo, Seguntum and the Iberian city between the last two. Attacking Punic Spain by the sea is simply not an option as we do not have, as yet, any Navis Actuaria. And while we're at war with the Western Greeks, might as well take Syracusae and Bovianum, a thorn in our Italian mainland. So off the legions redeploy

    231 : Bovianum falls
    230 : Syracusae falls, both without loss as I used newly acquired ballista and again a lot of Velites to help.

    Knowing of the looming showdown with Carthago, I buy templum in Agrigentum and Lilybaeum.

    Heal and redeploy towards Massilia, build road west of Genua

    224 : ready to take Massilia. By now, Hannibal has appeared, the wonder preventing Mediolanum's fall has become obsolete, so when the Western Greeks fall, in a couple of turns, it will be time for a showdown against Carthago.

    I now have 3031 gold in the treasury, 59 gpt, second punic war part 1 in 7 turns and I field : 23 legio 3 funditores 6 ballista 22 velites 3 eques 10 miles socius 2 legio consularis 4 triremis 5 corvus and I have built the Pantheon in Capua to help with the crucial happiness
     
  6. CCDK

    CCDK Chieftain

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    the illyrians are rather irritating - I finished them off at some point but I think I lost too much time by doing that early - had I done it later I could have used only minor parts of my forces.....

    I also once took those magna greeks with all the cities they had - because they are relatively easy - but I didnt dare starting a war with iberia because that might be an endless one and so didnt have a landroute to Spain - also I didnt count on the superunit being so aggressive - that unit like hannibals elites in spain - lost the city in a couple of turns....some of those ├╝berunits really has one shouting at the screen - OH COME ON! - i have the forces there to fight normal elements with pretty okay odds but with this freak homing in ill need 12 balista, 12 velites and 8 legions plus what I can spare elsewhere!!!.....makes for a hell of a lot of restarts before you even get near 100 BC....even on easy. Your consular armies simply more or less HAVE to be near those killers or one is toast....then again you need them on sicily too when defending and taking the cities or you loose a hell of a lot of units - those "marine" attacks kill - even tried more than once to loose a consular army while defending and the city even had coastal defenses.....

    its a really great mod/game but one shouldnt play it when in a bad mood or irritated - if that cant be avoided be sure to have a punching bag near so you dont turn on the keyboard or the screen..... ;)
     
  7. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

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    oh my :mischief:
     
  8. Stazro

    Stazro Prince

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    I see you are playing a good deal faster than me :) May i ask what changes you did with the units?
     
  9. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    Of course you may. I simply increase the stats of the Comitatenses (horse unit, not foot soldier) to 14/5 +2 hp the Eques alarius germanicus to 14/3 +2hp and the Cataphractus to 15/5 +3 hp. That last one may seem a little too powerful but in my experience, it becomes available so late in the game (and you can't upgrade a unit to Cataphractus) in so little number and they face such powerful units (stupid incursores anyone?) that they have to be stronger. In fact, I would strongly recommend these changes to anyone playing and planning to get far.

    But, as you can see, they only concern the late game. Nothing changes for the first 300 turns or so.
     
  10. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    219 : I conquer Massilia and Narbo without losses and make peace. I now have 3257 gold, 93gpt and will discover Second Punic War in 4 turns.

    I now have to take Tarraco in order to get a land route to Punic Spain. So war with Iberia.

    214 : I have taken Tarraco and Numantia (a bonus) again in a lossless way by using funditores, velites and ballista to soften the enemy before attacking. I make peace and immediately see an opportunity up north : Remember our friend Hannibal ? He's uselessly sitting outside of Mediolanum with nothing to do. One thing is important to remember : The Barcids is a 1 city civ : if you take Medionlanum, you kill Hannibal in a perfect way : by legally not fighting him. So, I set up an embassy, sign a RoP, check the number of defenders in Mediolanum and hurry north 1 army, 4 funditores, 4 velites and 7 legios.

    212 : I put all the aforementioned units next to Mediolanum and build a road.
    211 : I sneak attack Mediolanum, take it the same turn so, lo and behold, no more Hannibal. Of Course, Carthago declares war because of the MP, but I'm prepared, am I not ?

    210 : Having had the good idea of putting pretty much all my navy in Agrigentum, I am able to destroy, on this turn, 4 cumba and 4 or 5 quinqueremnis sumna. My 2 triremes docked in Palmera also go to work and, with the help of funditores bombardment, they sink 2 other quinqueremnis. I also destroy 4 units outside of Tarraco, again with a combination of bombardment and eques / velites.

    So, just like that, considering the ground troops in the cumba, I've destroyed 10-11 ships and 8-10 land units, again without losses.

    I now stand at 3220 gold in treasury, -17gpt (because I'm researching Education, which is a costly tech, in order for the imperium scipionis to spawn 2 units before it goes obsolete because of Slavery) and the Education tech will be mine in 8 turns. (I'm at 50 science 50 tax)

    I have the following units : 26 legio, 10 miles socius, 24 velites, 6 ballista, 5 funditores, 3 eques, 4 triremis, 5 corvus, 7 cumba, 1 navis actuaria,
     
  11. Stazro

    Stazro Prince

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    I think the civilopedia says that Hannibal Dux expires in 200. I have always believed in that... Ah, still learning something new :)
     
  12. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    I don't know about the civilopedia, but I just checked the editor : it's 225, which is logical because Hannibal spawns about then.
     
  13. CCDK

    CCDK Chieftain

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    *smacks his head*

    Why didnt that thought enter my mind!?!?! - Oh the proud Roman mind - unwilling to walk away from a fight and seek an easier route to greater Glory.....

    Your doing great - and im having a great time reading! :goodjob:
     
  14. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    Well, like I learned in Asterix : He who vanquishes without perils avoids troubles...

    Thanks to all who read and give feedback, however small, here's the next part:

    209 to 200 : Carthago tries to send other vessels, always in its traditional pairs near Sicily and they all get destroyed. I lose 1 Corvus and you can see the once proud Punic navy is going down the drain, so to speak...

    On the land front, A bunch of units show up near Tarraco where, as the AI does not learn, all my artillery is stationed = dead units. Eventually, Hasdrubal himself appears and he unceremoniously gets the same treatment. See you in Proserpina's realm...

    Now that Punic Spain is out of reserves, I begin my march south. I take Saguntum and, one after the other, all Cathaginian cities in Spain, losing nothing in the process. Again, repeat after me, all you kids out there : Bombard, bombard, bombard...

    199 : All of Punic Spain is mine, so I make peace with Carthago for 220 gold and 28gpt. I now have 3987 gold in treasury, am at 76gpt, will discover Slavery in 9 turns and I field the following : 27 legio, 6 funditores, 1 Legio Scipionis, 2 Legio Consularis, 10 Miles Socius, 24 Velites, 6 balllista, 4 triremis, 4 corvus, 6 cumba and 1 navis actuaria.

    Why did I make peace with Carthago instead of moving on straight to Africa ? Because of one very very important game concept : it takes time to move units from one region to another and the last thing you want is to waste time moving legios from one theater to another. Having all my units already in Spain, it is better for me to seize the occasion now and then move to Africa, Italy and Greece (to continue my conquests) than it is to go to Africa now, then to Spain and to Italy and Greece. This is faster as my units will finish in Hadrumentum and Leptis Major and will be ready to be shipped to Italy or Greece directly. I save a little time and the break in the war with Carthago also helps with war weariness. I also know that Carthago, reduced to Africa, will never recover enough to make the coming assaults more difficult than they would otherwise have been in 2 turns.

    198 : War with Iberia : my objectives are simple : all the road connected cities.

    War proceeds smoothly and I take Pax Iulia, Emerita Augusta, Toletum and I take Flaviobriga in the peace treaty.

    192 : End of the War with Iberia. I will move my units to Carthago Nova in order to ship them to Africa and Carthago, the bane of new players, will be nothing but a bad memory.
     
  15. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    The next 13 years are made of a careful battle from west to east, until I at last reach the last Carthaginian city of Leptis. Careful because one must make sure to leave enough units in garrison to prevent culture flips or propaganda on the part of Carthago. The battle for the city of Carthago itself is not so hard, but there are 2 cohors sacra and 1 Hannibal unit (different stats : immobile, def of 3 and 25 hp) and a lot of garrison, so you must bring all the artillery, all the armies and enough legios to bring it down in one turn.

    Again, I suffer no losses, except 1 corvus and I disband another to save a little money and because the only other naval opponent in the game is Egypt, and that fight is still a long way away.

    179 : - Delenda Carthago ? - Est.
    The mighty Carthaginian empire is no more and the last city falls as Roman legios triumph.
    I now control all the western Med. all the important cities in Spain as well as North Africa. I am now free to transfer as fast as I can my forces towards what's left of Illyria and Greece.

    I have 4941 gold in the treasury (bought 1 or 2 templum and 1 foreign legio), am at 150gpt, (to give a better idea : even though I pay 104gpt for units above 55, I still make money because my current total income is 626) and I field the following units :
    30 legio 2 legio consularis 1 legio scipionis 3 eques 10 miles socius 6 ballista 26 velites 1 corvus 4 liburna and 1 navis actuaria.

    The Praetor has been built and Roma is 10 turns away from finishing the Circus Maximus. Portus Migrare is being built in Massilia. Because it causes unhappiness, I didn't build socius subsidi. I could have, but then my finances would also have been strained, although you can disband the spawned units to hurry improvements in different cities.

    As you can see, my conquest pace is not incredibly fast, but it is nonetheless decent and, if all goes well enough in Greece (and it should), I will get to Asia in time to destroy Pontus before they become a threat and weaken Egypt enough so as not to bother with them afterwards. Having played conservatively so far, I will continue to do so and I think any beginner reading this will get a good idea of something they can "emulate", that is not too incredibly fast or too aggressive.
     
  16. Stazro

    Stazro Prince

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    I see you have chosen Massilia, too :) Where have you build the Pharus?
     
  17. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    Nowhere. I never build the Pharus as it costs too much for the benefits, in my opinion.
     
  18. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    177 : The first shipments arrive near Delphi and Ambracia.
    176 : Ambracia falls
    174 : Delphi falls
    173 : Circus Maximus completed in Roma. Work started on Portus Ostiae
    172 : Corinth falls.


    I now stand at 6321 gold and 214gpt, and I have 1 more legio and funditores than in the previous post.

    I will strike at Athens and Sparta next and will then tackle Macedonia and, finally, Illyria.
     
  19. Stazro

    Stazro Prince

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    Hm, i think it is useful: One more movement for all naval units and a great port for the cost of 1,25 units. In my opinion, the 5 movement cumbae have proven to be worth it, already.

    A lot of money do you have there!
     
  20. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    I understand the worth, but its fixed cost can become a hindrance as you are stuck with it until the very end (obviously can't disband it!). But is it really 10gpt ? I was sure it was 20gpt, which is why I didn't build it. Has it changed between versions ?

    Also, for the money, I try to play as conservatively as possible because it is a tutorial and many beginners, in the RFRE thread, expressed severe problems about money. So I'm purposely hoarding it away to show it is possible. But I'll build many ballista and Marius Legios in the coming turns, so that will drop.
     

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