Value of Tech.

[Moulton]

Can anyone tell me the value of techs, any tech, in any form? Gold, beakers, power, score... anything. And related: how much effect does a library, university and wonders have. REally.

Heres why: I am researching Chemistry. Predicted 14 turns, took 14. My output in beakers, the entire time was 287 per turn. Actually, a few more at the end, I built a library near the end.
Current is 299 per turn, and it will take 9 turns to get physics, the next tech. Yes, new research--nobody else is pursuiing this.

I spent some gold, and checked the output of every German, French and Indian city, and also my own.

By the book, the Civilopedia, Library increases you science output by 50%. University another 50%, comulative with Library. Copoernicus doubles research in its city.

According to the city screens. A city with 9 raw commerce produces 10 if it has a library. 50%?? A city with 16 raw yields 18. A city with 6 raw prduces 8 with library and university. a city with 22 raw prduces 30 with library and university. These are German cities. My onw ratio is the same.
In York i have 38 raw and 72 commerce (less 1 corruption) with library, Univ., and M/P. I built Copoernicus there, and the output increased to 102 commerce. The science output (beakers) increased from 60 to 90, set to 80% That is 50%, but not the university or the library.

 

[Moulton]

Update.
It turns out that the percentage going to science affects the ammount of currency generated by the city.
York: Has LIbrary, University, M/P and Copernicus. With 39 actual currency icons. At 50% yields 87 currency, at 80% yields 102 currency, 90 beakers. At 100% yields 110 currency, 108 science (2 corruption)
Notingham, with 17 actual currency, produces 24 at 80% and also at 100%. Library only.
Hastings with 22, produces 26 at 80%, 42 at 100%. LIb, Univ, M/P
Norwich, with 28 produces 53 at 80%, Lib, Univ, M/P., and 59 at 100% with lib, univ, M/P and now a bank.

 

[Hurricane]

I´d like to help you, but your text is so confusing that I don´t know what to say. Could you post a screenshot of the city screen from one of the cities which produce a "wrong" number of beakers?

 

[Moulton]

Sure, I'll put one up tonight. I found the same pattern in every country I looked at.
I was really surprised when I saw the total amount of currency produced change with the percentage alloted to science. The currency total changed as well as the science amount.

 

[Mr Spice]

I noticed something similar back in november, while playing as the babylonians. In Babylon I had library, university, research lab, Copernicus and Newtons. When comparing the research output before bonuses (commerce in city * percentage to science) with output after bonus (the number of bulbs) the increase was only about 20%.

I also compared Babylon to another city with a similar amount of commerce and all science improvements (but no wonders). Since both wonders are said to double research, one would expect Babylon to have 4 times the output, but in reality it was only like 5% more or something.

 

[jimmytrick]

I can't follow what you are saying. Please be more specific in all things starting with game settings and difficulty level, patch version, etc.

 

[Mr Spice]

In my game, as far as remember, I played at Regent. It was before the release of the first patch. Other than adding this information, I don´t see how I can be more specific than I have already been. I will try to look for a saved game, but I have no great hope finding one.

 

[jimmytrick]

My opinion is that the game in its current version is flat broken irregardless of any inconsistencies regarding the bonuses.

If you beeline and research hard to get the Great Library you can then just stop researching. If isolated you might need to build the Lighthouse.

You will get all the techs you need from the Great Library to build the infrastructure required to thrive.

There is no need to ever build a library or university or spend more than a token amount on research from the point you get Literature.

You can buy tech from the AI at about 15% of the cost of researching it.

Researching is at this point poor play. IMHO.

 

[jimmytrick]

Sorry, Mr. Spice, I was responding to Moulton!

We do need to do some serious study of how these bonuses are calculated per city, but until this huge tech trading loophole is plugged it seems a moot point.

 

[Shaitan]

This is very confusing. It's compounded by a display problem. The city view does not give you the actual total research from the city. The second problem is the confusing descriptions of the research helping improvements. Effects are not really cumulative, they are collective.

Let me try to break this down. Say you have a city with Library (+50%), University (+50%) and Copernicus (+100%). The city produces a base of 100 beakers (ridiculously high but it makes the example math easier ). If effects were actually cumulative you would get a whopping 450 beakers.
100 base, plus 50% (library) = 150
150, plus 50% (university) = 225
225, plus 50% (copernicus) = 450 beakers

That's not what happens. The way increases to production and research work are that all bonuses get applied to the city's base amounts. Our city above actually produces 300 beakers.
100(base) + 50(library) + 50(university) + 100(Copernicus) = 300 beakers.

 

[jimmytrick]

Is this not a departure from the way things worked in Civ2 and SMAC? Why is there a display problem in the city view? Is this going to be corrected? What is going on here?

 

[Nero Would]

This is how I believe your science output is calculated. Does this agree with what you are seeing?

1. Add up the amount of gold produced by each tile in your city.
2. Subtract gold lost to corruption.
3. Multiply by the science percentage set in the domestic advisor and round to the nearest whole number.
4. Add up the bonus percentages from the science buildings in your city and increase your science output by this percentage. This is the amount of gold going to science that you should see in the city screen.
5. Add up the gold going to science from every city in your empire and you should get the science output listed in the "expenses" section of the domestic advisor screen.
6. Increase your science output by the number of scientists in your empire. This is the real number of beakers you are producing, but it is not shown anywhere.
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[Shaitan]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
There is no need to ever build a library or university or spend more than a token amount on research from the point you get Literature.

Until the Library goes away, that is. Once Education is learned (by anybody) the Great Library stops functioning.

Originally posted by jimmytrick
You can buy tech from the AI at about 15% of the cost of researching it.

Again, this is only true in the early times. Starting in the middle of the Medieval era, techs begin to get progressively more expensive to purchase. At this point, it is important to maintain a technological advantage in a branch of research so you have techs to trade out for the ones the AI researches.

The Great Library is a massively powerful wonder but it's time is limited. It will also never give you a tech lead. Either will the purchase from the AI strategy. On the higher levels, 10 turns of tanks before the AI gets them can be absolutely priceless.

 

[jimmytrick]

Well, tech is essentially free. Say by the early industrial game you spend no money on research. Instead of building a library and university in say...twelve core cities you don't build any. That saves (lib-1, univ-2) 3 x 12 =36 coins per turn. If the AI gets a new tech in 10 turns you have saved 360 in maintenance cost. You can buy that tech for 360 in many cases after it have been swapped around.

Research is poor play. Soren? What are you thinking about?

So this goes back to the question in the original post. Tech has no value in this game.

 

[jimmytrick]

Shaitan, you need to rethink your abrupt dismissal of my POV.

Example: In my current game France has just discovered Scientific Method and is will to trade for 580 gold. It would have cost me at least 4,000 coin to research this on my own.

By waiting a turn or two I can get it for less than 400.

It might be different on Diety but this holds true on Monarch and Emperor.

 

[jimmytrick]

The whole trading system is whacko really. Look at how cheaply you can bribe another civ to declare war on someone. Compare that with the cost of espionage. It's unfathomable.

 

[Mr Spice]

Originally posted by Nero Would

1. Add up the amount of gold produced by each tile in your city.
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1. 
   
   Well, this is also a problem since the city´s total commerce is not always the same amount of commerce produced by the tiles being worked by the city. Moulton pointed this out in his first post and it agrees with what I have been observing.
   
   Shaitan, thanks for your explanation! Now we only need to explain the increased ammount of commerce as well.
   
   I also agree with Jimmytrick that doing your own research is a waste of time and resources. Even if you don´t have the GL it is cheaper to buy tech than research on your own. If you don´t want to fall too far behind this is in fact your only option. At some point though, it becomes worthwile do do some extensive research yourself.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Shaitan, you need to rethink your abrupt dismissal of my POV.

My apologies if my post read like I dismissed your point. On the contrary, I agree fully with some of your argument. If you have the GL then researching in the Ancient Times is a waste of money. In fact, my basic strategy is to get the GL and use the cash I save to make war or infrastructure.

My comments are admittedly colored by my playing style. By the middle of the Medieval age I take control of the world's technology. I get far more from selling techs than they cost me to research. I also have technological superiority and the option to get the techs that I want, not what the AI decides to research.

 

[Mr Spice]

I found an old screenshot of Babylon from the example mentioned earlier. (It looks rather ugly since I decreased the amount of colours, but suits it´s purpose. )

When looking at it, one notices a few things. "Commerce" equals 123-1 = 122 units, but when counting commerce produced by tiles it only sums up to 36. Science output is set to 60% and equals 84 units. 122*0.6 = 73.2. Tech improvements are Copernicus, Newtons, Library and University. (I have obviosly not come as far as computers, so my memory about research laboraroty must be wrong.) Something seems fishy.

However, I did some calucations. Let´s asume that commerce output is in fact only 36 units. 36-1 = 35. 35*0.6 = 21. This should be the basic science output. Adding effect of improvements (according to Shaitans statement): 21+21*0.5+21*0.5+21*1+21*1 = 84!

It seems that the confusing part here is the commercial display. The ammount of commerce is obviously not "raw" commerce produced by the city, but instead total ammount of units after adding bonuses from science and economy improvements.

Babylon

 

[Nero Would]

Originally posted by Mr Spice
However, I did some calucations. Let´s asume that commerce output is in fact only 36 units. 36-1 = 35. 35*0.6 = 21. This should be the basic science output. Adding effect of improvements (according to Shaitans statement): 21+21*0.5+21*0.5+21*1+21*1 = 84!

It seems that the confusing part here is the commercial display. The amount of commerce is obviously not "raw" commerce produced by the city, but instead total ammount of units after adding bonuses from science and economy improvements.

Exactly! That's how it works for happiness and treasury as well.