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value of Temple of Artemis

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dalamb, Oct 3, 2009.

  1. JammerUno

    JammerUno King

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    ToA vs. GL isn't a good comparison, the costs of getting the GL are veering into the upper branch of the techtree, and the ToA is available far earlier as well, which means you can't afford it on higher difficulties as you'll be boxed in. Besides, it's not like you're forced to choose between either the ToA or the GL, you're choice is about building the ToA weighed against other options you have at the time, which usually don't include the GL.

    It's great when you're isolated and manage to combine it with the GHL, since the opportunity cost of the settlers you get out later is nonexistant in that case, and you can fund some extra research slider with either a settled GM or GP.
     
  2. Rittmeyer

    Rittmeyer Prince

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    people will give credit to the opinion of those who contribute to these forums. I'm new posting here but I've been lurking for long, and I've learned a lot from people like Snaaty, Obsolete or TMIT. And I've also seen numberless useless (it seens you aim at making them funny, in which you fail miserably) comments being posted by you, just so you know.

    On topic, the 5GPP on ToA seens to be of value if you consider a false wonder"spamming" strategy, i.e., you build ToA, Great Library and from there only the wonders you believe you can actually pull out, not commiting that much. You would still get a lot of GP early, especially if Philo.
     
  3. Tyrant Roger

    Tyrant Roger Warlord

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    I never build the Temple of Artemis, but I always check where it is if I have a Great Merchant. In my game of the moment I am on a large land mass with 5 AI's. The sixth is Tokugawa on an island by himself. He - as usual - has not opened borders with anyone and is way behind. But he has built one wonder. You guessed it - the Temple. AI logic is often a great mystery.
     
  4. Nares

    Nares Emperor

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    I would think you'd be more boxed in, because you'll want to start building it earlier (meaning fewer settlers out pre-wonder).
     
  5. Korias

    Korias King

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    Personally, I always try to build the ToA- 5 GPP (10 if Philosophical) is a HUGE benefit early on, and rushing Polytheism to get to it will net an early religion, which can be further bosted by the possible Great Prophet that you can pop early on to build the Holy City Wonder. Its a very culture-win oriented wonder that's designed to get you a head start, either with another wonder that generates commerce or a settled or bulbed Great Artist. However, I usually decide between it or Stonehenge, depending if I'm Philosophical or Charismatic.

    However, I now play on Marathon and Epic, where I have time to chop and get the wonders out of the gate after some settlers to prevent being boxed in. Early Wonders, especially with 1-3 cities, can be a pain.
     
  6. Fluxx

    Fluxx Mr. Almost There

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    One of my best Montezuma games on Immortal was with Temple of Artemis.

    The general underratedness of GP's and GM's early is a big factor in people disliking ToA. Yes, it is a big undertaking and a very expensive wonder. However if you do get it, you will have a very strong early capital, that lasts till sci met, and has great synergy with other wonders.

    Settled GP's or GM's in early stages of the game can make huge differences in upkeep deficits, also bulbing currency can be one of the strongest early bulbs in the game.

    Currency + ToA = obvious win.

    At higher difficulties it will be almost impossible though to get both GLH and ToA, but still ToA in a coastal capital city can be insanely strong.
     
  7. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

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    I think this (GLH +ToA) isn't a synergy, but a trap. I wouldn't even try for it.... building settlers with GLH is best imo. Think about the number of cities and commerce the hammers you sink in to the ToA could have gain you. Only time when you want both of them is when you built GLH and you are boxed in... but you shouldn't have built GLH in the first place then...


    Also without the mids, telling that ToA is as powerfull as the GL is wrong (I think that's Krikittone who compared them). main benefit of GL isn't 6 commerce equivalent, but the possibility to avoid caste, while still reaching liberalism quickly. Or with caste/pacifism/GL combo, beat the crap of your previous best liberalism date.
    Beside, ToA timing isn't superb, you are generally REXing at that time, GL comes later... :)

    Cheers
     
  8. Windsor

    Windsor Flawless

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    I find the GLH to go fast, not unusal to see it built before 2000BC. GLH is one of those wonders I have problems with getting and since it isn't boosted by a resource failure cash isn't as nice.
     
  9. GONeill85

    GONeill85 Chieftain

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    Agreed, useless wonder
     
  10. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    For most people's openings & strategies this piece doesn't always fit so well. I wouldn't say that mean's it's timing is bad, a lot has to do with your prefered strategy, etc. It is just perfect for those time's you started in a box and have no hope except for an AP game. This can give you your only OUT right when you need it most, etc.

    For those who say it's useless, I can only assume they just re-roll maps in these spots. In that case, fine it is useless to YOU. Not to serious players who want to carry out a game as though their life depended on it. I don't really fancy HoF generation.
     
  11. Shafi

    Shafi King

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    GLH is an awsome wonder on water based maps and you should priorotise it in such games, i for one have not had a problem getting it. I never build many wonders, maybe 2 or 3, so whatever i want beeline towards it and priorotise.
     
  12. TheLazyHase

    TheLazyHase King

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    I don't understand.

    Something is useless if doing it is pointless. ToA is obviously useful if you get it ; it's just costly because it's early.

    I would understand saying it's one of the most overpriced wonder (not really in hammer, but in the fact it monopolize a good prodcution at a time where you have few city and lot of thing to build). But useless, I don't understand.
     
  13. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I find it the opposite ---> the problem with ToA is that it frequently costs a city site, sometimes more than one. That's a big price tag for an admittedly good wonder otherwise.

    I agree if you're boxed in it gives you a chance to make a run at the AP...but I only do AP games once in a while now since at some point it started to feel like "finish AP in christianity = win".

    With a lot of starts I don't see the opportunity cost paying off here, especially given the order one must tech poly.

    We're killing definitions here. Something can be useful while doing it is still pointless (ToA is an example on SOME maps). Any time you pick an alternative that is worthwhile, but not your BEST alternative (based on whatever you're going for), you did something pointless.

    But getting ToA itself isn't useless ever. It gives a powerful amount of GPP very early and can pay off bigtime for coastal capitols + bureaucracy. Is that worth its cost? Maybe.
     
  14. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    The last time I built it I gained 3 city sites. You build, while AI settles close to you. Then your Wonder culture flips them, you get the new sites FREE, AND the ToA. Win-Win.

    I would have flipped a 4'th city, but took it with my military before that happened.
     
  15. morchuflex

    morchuflex Emperor

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    Not unusual, but still infrequent.
    I play Emperor on Epic speed and most of the time it is built somewhere between 1400 and 800 BC. It is only built before 2000 when someone with a headstart on water techs (like Ragnar or Hannibal) gets stuck without decent sites to colonize and goes for wonders instead of expanding. Unlucky, but infrequent.
    If I want to be (almost) sure to get it, I'll build it before my first settler (which can be detrimental, of course). But most of the time, I can settle my second city before I start it. On any level below Emperor, I'll even settle 2 cities.
    Of course, some leaders help more than others. IMHO, a perfect leader to grab the GLH is... Louis! Industrious obviously helps by reducing the cost. And because Louis is creative, no need to divert hammers and beakers for Mysticism, monuments or Stonehenge.
     
  16. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    I build it for fail-gold mostly if I have the resource - same with several other wonders.
     
  17. morchuflex

    morchuflex Emperor

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    Has there been any serious study on the efficiency of this "fail-gold" strategy? Isn't it always better to invest hammers in something you really need, that is (in the early game) settlers, workers and troops, and later wonders you really hope to achieve, more troops, spies, ships to explore the world, settle other landmasses, make contact, and so on?
    And if you really, really don't have anything important to build, shouldn't you
    1. Turn citizens to specialists instead of working hammer-rich tiles?
    2. And, more importantly, go up one difficulty level? Because frankly, since starting on Emperor level, I never have run out of useful things to build in my cities, unless I had badly screwed my research priorities.
     
  18. Silu

    Silu Deity

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    Fail-gold is an established strategy that works up to and including Deity. Pretty hard to go up from there. Basically working a grass mine for failgold with a wonder resource (but no further hammer bonuses) is a 1:food: 6:gold: tile, though the gold is delayed. It's quite good in many situations.
     
  19. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I'm not sold...last time I tried to culture flip a city, it had more % me than the AI for 3/4 of the entire game...and never revolted let alone flipped. That was on immortal, too. I don't think deity AIs deliberately shuffle units out of their cities, and once they have monument/library/monastery/temple it's going to be pretty rough trying to flip it.

    I did see your post showing the cities getting flipped though. Are you doing anything other than just building the wonder?
     
  20. Windsor

    Windsor Flawless

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    You'll need money to support cities and troops! Fail-gold with resources turns :hammers: into :gold: at a 1:2-ratio. That's twice as good as building wealth directly and actually a decent exchange rate.

    A plains-hills will give you 8:gold:/turn(two grassland-hills will be even better!). A merchant specialist gives you 3.75:gold:(market) so if the city ain't going to produce a great person a merchant sucks. And, maybe more important, you will not always be able to build research/gold or have specialists slots.

    The big problem with building wonders for failure-cash is obvious that you don't know when you'll recive the money. Guess addding more civs will make the strategy more reliable.
     

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