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Values Question

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Final Frontier Plus' started by fdrpi, Dec 1, 2012.

  1. fdrpi

    fdrpi Chieftain

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    This has always bugged me lore wise. Four of the colonies are the civ form of a value. The Syndicate is all about wealth, Halis survival, Astro Tech power, and the Avowers knowledge. It does not make sense for them to have any values other than those ones, or for anyone else to have it. It seems like those colonies should have their capitals be the holy cities for their respective values.

    Anyway, that is what I think. Am I missing something that resolves this though?
     
  2. TC01

    TC01 Chieftain

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    I will admit this bugs me as well.

    I think you can make an argument for Astro Tech Knowledge; their original goal was to develop technology, after all. Likewise... maybe Red Syndicate Power; much like real history in which countries with strong economies eventually became military superpowers.

    Also, New Earth would definitely probably identify with Power as well.

    But yes, you are right, and part of this is my fault. Unfortunately, my ages old goal of "write more stuff about the Final Frontier universe" never really happened... so backstories for other leaders, more nuanced faction history, etc. that might have helped make this seem slightly less completely egregious isn't in place. So all of the factions are essentially values based, and we see very little of them beyond a sort of "this is what the faction believes in at the start of the game". Which means we have no idea how they might adapt to other values than the ones their factions are based around.

    As a result it kind of sticks out like a sore thumb, yes.

    In fairness, this isn't really a problem unique to Final Frontier. Fall from Heaven 2 has a similar thing where it really doesn't make sense for, say, the Sheaim to be anything but Ashen Veil. Or for the Bannor to not be Order. Or for the Khazad not to be Runes of Kilmorph. However, because there is so much more written in FFH2, it isn't such a problem because you actually can imagine a scenario where the Bannor convert to a different religion. It's just very unlikely.


    On a vaguely related note, I sometimes wonder if Jon Shafer ever came up with more stuff for Final Frontier beyond what appeared in the mod. I used to think that maybe some day we might see a "Final Frontier 2" free-standing game from Firaxis, but that of course was before Jon left Firaxis to go to Stardock. And Stardock have their own space-based TBS series, so I doubt we'll ever know now.
     
  3. God-Emperor

    God-Emperor Chieftain

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    I don't really agree. I thank any of them could reasonably have just about any value. There are only a few combinations that are particularly weird.

    All of then survived the difficult times shortly after losing contact with the Earth, as they all depended heavily on Earth. That could give rise to the Survival value anywhere.

    Anybody can "get religion".

    The Syndicate is not just about wealth, they want to be in control too and that is power. AstroTech is not just about power, they are also interested in wealth (they used to be a corporation, after all). I'm sure both know the phrase "knowledge is power" as well. Just because you are interest in wealth or power doesn't mean you have institutionalized it like an organized religion. Also, technically I think the Syndicate is largely about trade. Although to some extent that is the same as wealth. With the UB I gave them it also demonstrates an interest in espionage, which is a form of knowledge.

    The Brotherhood was already planning an uprising against the Earth, so clearly they are interested in power. Any of the values could suit them, although wealth is, I think, the least likely to fit them.

    Once the civs start running into each other and realize that the other civilizations are competitors it follows that any of them could develop a large interest in Power. Or recognize the potential advantages of trade and thereby develop in interest in Wealth. Curiosity about what the other civs know, or fear that they know more than you do, could lead to Knowledge.

    Paradise, with it's stratified population, has at least a large chunk of it's population interested in wealth. On one side they want to maintain their wealth, on the other they want to spread it around and increase the wealth of the "worker class". The conflict between the two also leads to an obvious desire for power on both sides.

    The Forge could go for any of them. Leverage greater production into wealth, or power, or knowledge, or to help their survival, or support religion. Anything is suitable.

    The closest association between a civ and a value is probably the Avowers of Knowledge and the Knowledge value (it's even in their name). But again, just because they value knowledge doesn't mean they will make a formal institution to promote it, particularly one separate from the regular educational system's universities and their research institute UB. Making it a separate thing even seems a bit out of place for them, to me. Their civilization is already focused on knowledge and will have an extensive set of universities (due to the 100% production bonus for building them), and research institutes shortly after they become available. I don't think it is any more likely for them to separate out a whole separate religion-like setup for research than it is for some civ that isn't already so research focused. All of the civs are aware that they do not have access to all the techs that Earth had (they must have general information in the form of encyclopedia style information, as well as some textbook type information and the personal knowledge of the survivors themselves - this would be why the rate of tech advancement is so fast: they are not inventing new tech from nothing, they are relearning it with foreknowledge of what is possible and at least some idea of how a lot of it is done), so any of them might feel a strong desire to recover all the lost knowledge and develop that into the value type system for Knowledge.

    I have also considered adding another value. Sometimes I like the idea, other times I'm not so sure it is a good idea. That new value would be Productivity. The temple type buildings, and shrine, would give a small production bonus. Perhaps a flat +1 production (plus the usual influence) and something like +3% for everything and an additional +3% just for buildings for a total of 6% for them (this would require a new tag in the building XML; if that were not done it would probably be something like a 5% production bonus). The bonuses would have to be relatively small as it helps everything - the player gets more money and more research by building the buildings for that faster, as well as building up a military faster. In reference to this thread's topic, the "natural fit" for it would be the Forge civ.
     
  4. TC01

    TC01 Chieftain

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    While I think this is true (and I gave a few examples of it, though the rest of your post was much more thorough than mine)- I think the problem is more that what story we have is all about how the factions are set up, what their morals are, etc. right when the Earth vanishes.

    Some of the existing text gives us some hints about about how politics, etc. have developed since then, but only within a timespan of a few years. We know, as you said, that all the factions survive in the absence of Earth, but after that we don't know what happens. It has, of course, been left up for the player to determine that, just like a normal game of Civilization. Except vanilla Civilization has real history to fall back onto: we don't, because the history of the Final Frontier universe only exists up to the start of the game.

    Basically: we have a setting, not a story.

    Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but... I can understand why, as a result of it, questions like this one might come up. As the Syndicate under Vladimir Korovin is written about in the pedia, it of course makes sense that they would Value wealth. "Korovin's primary aim is to acquire money", etc.

    There is obviously potential that Vladimir Korovin could embrace, let's say, Power, because he wants to expand his political influence rather than just his money. Or that after years of acquiring wealth he decides to do something with it and conquer everyone. Or, his people move to a different value irregardless of what he believes, and because their government is democratic, or whatnot, the government acts on this and ignores their founder and converts to Religion or Survival or who knows what.

    So there are reasons why many value/civ combinations are justifiable, but also reasons why they might not occur to someone looking through the faction histories in the 'pedia to find out what the faction they're playing as is all about.

    This sounds cool, though I'm also not sure about it.

    I think it'd be more interesting to first make the existing values more, er, interesting- though admittedly I'm not sure how we could do that.

    Maybe with the shrines and stuff we've already done this to some extent though.

    I have to admit, it's been too long since I've looked at this mod. There are times when I want to start working on it again, but usually, for whatever reason, those are times when I have many other things I ought to be doing. :(
     

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