Various Civilization Changes Polls:

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by pineappledan, Aug 18, 2021.

  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Welcome to the pineappledan tweaks polls.

    I run a tweaks mod that adjusts some perceived balance issues or adds some new features for players
    I would like to slim that mod down a bit, and move some of my changes into main VP if there is popular agreement on the changes.
    Most of these changes have been discussed at length in their relevant Leader Balance threads, and many have all been implemented as a modmod which you can try out to see if you like the change before making a decision (link in my signature).

    Please follow the link to fill out the poll for each of the proposed changes. I will periodically go through them and summarize the results.
    Spoiler America :

    America Changes Poll

    Current implementation:
    • Smithsonian is a unique Hermitage national wonder that unlocks 1 tech later
    • The current Smithsonian gives strong bonuses only towards cultural victory.
    • New proposal is a Hermitage replacement that unlocks on the normal technology, and unlocks 3 new national wonders that specialize in either cultural, science, or domination victories. This gives America more late-game flexibility to pursue other victory types

    UB: Independence Hall
    125:c5production:, scaling with cities
    requires 35:c5citizen: Citizens
    Available at Architecture
    does not require an Opera House in the City
    2:c5culture:

    1:c5culture: for every 4:c5citizen: Citizens in the city
    +10%:c5culture: Culture in the City
    -10% :c5unhappy:Boredom in all Cities on Empire
    Contains 3 :greatwork:Great Works of Art/Artifact Slots (Art from your Civilization; 3:c5culture:3:c5gold: if themed)
    -5% :c5culture: Culture cost on Policies
    Unlocks 3 additional National Wonders​

    Hoover Dam
    1500:c5production:
    Available at Electricity
    Mutually exclusive

    2:c5gold:2:c5production:
    2:c5gold:2:c5production: to Every World Wonder on Empire
    +5:c5gold:Gold and :c5production:Production to Hotels and Stadiums on Empire
    -25% :c5gold:Gold cost for Purchasing tiles
    10% of :c5gold:Gold in all cities is converted to :c5production:Production
    FREE Hydro Plant in this City
    +25% of the :c5culture: Culture from World Wonders, Natural Wonders, and :c5culture: Tiles in all cities' contributes to :tourism:Tourism Output.
    :trade:Trade Routes complete in Half the usual time​

    Smithsonian Institute
    1500:c5production:
    Available at Biology
    Mutually exclusive

    2:c5science:2:c5culture:
    2:c5science:2:c5culture: to Every World Wonder on Empire
    +5:c5science:Science and :c5culture:Culture to Museums and Research Labs on Empire
    -25% :c5gold:Gold cost for Purchasing tiles
    10% of :c5gold:Gold in all cities is converted to :c5culture:Culture
    FREE Museum in all Cities on Empire​

    West Point
    1500:c5production:
    Available at Replaceable Parts
    Mutually exclusive

    2:c5science:2:c5production:
    2:c5science:2:c5production: to Every World Wonder on Empire
    5:c5science: Science and :c5production:Production to Military Academies and Military Bases on Empire
    -25% :c5gold:Gold cost for Purchasing tiles
    10% of :c5gold:Gold in all cities is converted to :c5science: Science
    3 FREE Iron
    3 FREE Artillery Units appear next to this City
    Siege units on empire receive the Splash I promotion​

    Spoiler Mongolia :

    Mongol changes Poll

    UA: Mongol Terror
    • Remove the "Ignores Alliance and Protection penalties when bullying" bonus (move it to Zulu)
    UGG: Khan
    • Can build Ordo unique tile improvement
    • Cannot build Citadels
    • In addition to current bonuses (+movement and medic), acts as mobile citadel: deals 10 damage to all adjacent enemy units each turn.

    UGPTI: Ordo
    • Can be built on any land tile not adjacent to another Ordo (same as citadel)
    • Can be built adjacent to friendly territory. Claims adjacent tiles (same as citadel)
    • 1:c5food::c5production::c5gold::c5culture: (vs 1:c5production::c5science: from citadel)
    • Gains yields from techs/policies/wonders the same as Citadels and other UIs The only difference is that techs that give citadels :c5science:Science (Chemistry & Stealth) give Ordos :c5culture:Culture instead.
    • 50% tile :c5strength:Defense (same as fort), no Damage to adjacent enemy units
    • Units that move onto an Ordo gain +1:c5moves:Movement that turn.
    A unique great person deserves a unique great person tile. This helps Mongol's UU feel more unique even if you are only keeping 2-3 alive at any time, because they make something different from a standard Citadel. The Ordo also enhances the Mongols' movement, which is more fitting than a static defenses for a nomadic people.

    Spoiler England :

    England Changes Poll

    current situation:
    • The White tower replaces the National Intelligence Agency
    • It unlocks at Machinery, 8 tech levels earlier, and is significantly weaker than the base NIA
    • It gives England a 2nd spy before other civs receive their 1st, overlapping on the UA
    • This proposal makes the white tower replace the national wonder that already exists on Machinery: the Ironworks.
    • The new White tower has all the base bonuses of the Ironworks, but adds more yields for espionage actions, and some other minor buffs, but doesn't give a free spy.
    • England can now enjoy the full benefit of the much more powerful base NIA in its regular unlock location.
    UNW: White Tower (replaces Ironworks):
    available at Machinery
    requires Forge
    +10 for :c5production: Production, +2 :c5culture: Culture, +2 :c5science: Science, +2 :c5gold: Gold
    +3:c5strength: City Defense
    +2 Iron Resources
    +1 :c5culture: Culture to all Castles, Armories, and Constabularies on Empire
    Contains 1 :greatwork: great work of art/artifact slot, which comes filled with the :greatwork:Crown Jewels great work
    25 :c5science:Science and :c5gold:Gold for every building :c5production: Construction in this city, scaling with Era.
    25 :c5science:Science and :c5gold:Gold when you perform an Advanced Action, steal a Great Work or Technology, complete a City-State coup or Election Rigging, or kill a foreign Spy in this City (+5:c5gold:/:c5science: for Advanced Actions), all scaling with Era.​

    Spoiler Indonesia :

    Indonesia Changes Poll

    UA: Sumpah Palapa
    • A unique Resource (Pepper, Cloves, or Nutmeg) is placed under or near a newly acquired City
    • Gains an additional 5% to Global Modifiers and +2 :c5happy:Happiness and Tile Yields from all Luxury resource monopolies
    UR: Unique Resources:
    Cloves:
    +2 :c5gold:
    +1 :c5faith: +1 :c5gold: when improved
    +6 :c5happy: global monopoly
    +1 :c5faith: +1 :c5culture: with Candi/Garden​

    Pepper:
    +1 :c5gold: +1 :c5food:
    +1 :c5faith: +1 :c5gold: when improved
    +3 :c5food: per tile global monopoly
    +1 :c5faith: +1 :c5gold: with Candi/Garden​

    Nutmeg:
    +1:c5gold: +1 :c5production:
    +1 :c5culture: +1 :c5gold: when improved
    +10% :c5production: global monopoly
    +1 :c5culture: +1 :c5production: with Candi/Garden​

    UB: Candi Changes:
    • Added Resources to Cloves, Pepper, and Nutmeg resources to the base Garden and all unique Garden-Class buildings (see above)
    • :c5unhappy:Urbanization reduction reduced to -1 (same as base Garden)
    • :c5culture: Culture and :c5faith: Faith modifiers from :c5happy:WLTKD reduced to 15% (down from 25%)

    UU: Kris Swordsman Changes
    • :c5strength:CS reduced to 17 (same as base swordsman again)
    • Mystic Blade Promotion Tweaks (Changes in Bold and Blue):
      • Sneak Attack: Flanking bonus increased by 20%. Ignores Terrain Costs and Zone of Control.
      • Recruitment: REMOVED
      • Invulnerability: Damage from all sources reduced by 2. +20 HP when healing.
      • Ancestral Protection: +5%:c5strength: Combat Strength when attacking. +30%:c5strength: Combat Strength when defending.
      • Ambition: 30% :c5strength: Attacking, +5% :c5strength: Defending
      • Restlessness: +1 Attack, +1 Move
      • Enemy Defection renamed to Recruitment: 10 HP Every Turn if the unit ends its turn in Enemy Territory. 10 Damage to Adjacent Enemy Units Each turn
        • Damage per turn does not stack with citadels
      • Heroism: REMOVED

    Spoiler Maya :

    Maya Changes Poll
    • Atlatl Strike reduced from +50% to +33% vs wounded units.

    Spoiler Zulu :

    Zulu Changes Poll
    • Zulu now have both tribute demand threat-enhancing abilities: +50% military strength when demanding tribute, and they ignore Defensive Pledges and Alliances (moved from Mongolia).
    • Iklwa no longer gives XP for standing in enemy territory
    • the Impi's bonus vs Gunpowder and the ranged strike before melee are now split into 2 promotions. The Bonus vs Gunpowder stays on Upgrade.

    Spoiler India :

    India Changes Poll
    • Naga Malla gets Barrage I for free
    • Remove +1:c5production: to Flood Plains from Harrapan Reservoir

    Spoiler Iroquois :

    Iroquois Changes Poll
    • Removed +20%:c5strength:CS when near a Natural Wonder
    • Added +1:c5production: from Camps to Longhouse
    • Mohawk Warrior now has Woodsman, even if gifted via a city-state

    Spoiler Siam :

    Siam Changes Poll
    • bonus yields from city-states increased from 75% to +100%
    • Naresuan's Elephant gets General Stacking bonus for free
    • General Stacking bonus increased to 25%

    Spoiler Sweden :

    Sweden Changes Poll
    • Carolean changed from a Tercio to a Fusilier replacement with 42:c5strength:CS
    • Carolean no longer has General Stacking bonus (moved to Siam)
    • Grenadier AOE damage on kill increased from 10 to 15

    Spoiler Songhai :

    Songhai Changes Poll
    • Mandekalu Cavalry changed from Horseman to Knight replacement with 25:c5strength:CS

    Spoiler Brazil :

    Brazil Changes Poll
    • Brazilwood Camp no longer requires an adjacent luxury; it requires no Fresh Water access instead

    Spoiler Carthage :

    Carthage Changes Poll
    • Quinquereme's Heavy Assault promotion now stays on upgrade

    Spoiler Korea :

    Korea Changes Poll
    • UA gives +20%:c5science:Science during :c5goldenage:Golden Ages instead of +30%:c5greatperson:Great Person Rate
    • Seowon changes:
      • No longer gives +15%:c5science:Science during :c5goldenage:Golden Ages
      • moved back to Education
      • Base yields changed to 3:c5science:2:c5culture:
      • Gives either +2:c5science: or +1:c5science::c5production: to all GPTIs near the city
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2021
  2. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    I think this probably shouldn't just be a series of polls, because that doesn't leave a lot of room for "I like this idea but I would like it more if it was tweaked xyz".

    As for the changes themselves, it looks like a mix of small balance tweaks (like India's/Iroquois changes) that make perfect sense imo and some more substantial changes (like America's proposal). I do like the look of America's changes, it seems like it opens up America's late game more instead of making it more niche towards CV as it currently is.
     
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  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    discussion is welcome

    I put the 3 big changes at the front. That's why it's not in alphabetical order. I tried to organize them by "weightiness"
     
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    As for discussing fine balance, all of these proposals have cropped up in the relevant leader balance discussions. Some of those discussions stretch back over months or years, and cover many pages. These formalized, coded versions of the proposed changes have also existed in my civ tweaks mod for some time. Any opinions on what should be changed about these proposals can be discussed here, or in my tweaks mod, or in the relevant leader thread.
     
  5. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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    Smithsonian Institute is already in EEVP as BUILDING_EE_SMITHSONIAN since years.
    simth_inst.png
    So, I'm absolutly against this introduction.
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Smithsonian Institute is already in base VP for years...

    If EE replaces 1 or the other, I assume however it is done would carry over here.
     
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  7. AndreyK

    AndreyK Prince

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    America change is so much boost especially with Smithsonian
    4 culture 2 science in city
    1 culture per 4 citizens in the city
    10% culture in the city
    -5% culture for policies
    2 culture 2 science per WW
    10 culture 10 science in every city
    free Museum in every city
    10% gold to culture in every city

    I think that you are trying to give America like 7 unique WW

    Eiffel Tower at dynamite (1 tech earlier than biology) gives -10% culture for policies and 3 culture in city and this is one of the best WW.
    I think after this change America is going to be simply strongest civ after Industrial and you have 3 full eras to play
     
  8. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    All the bonuses from the Independence hall are on the base Hermitage except the -5% policy cost. I have struck out the relevant lines from your post in the quote above.
    Keep in mind, these 3 wonders are the latest Unique Buildings in the entire game by 2 full eras. They do need to be suitably powerful in light of that.
    Also, they are extra buildings with a production full cost that need to pay back their investment, since other civilizations don't have to build these.
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    With respect, I don't agree.

    Currently I can't change my vote in these polls, so if someone was able to sway me in this thread by discussion....it wouldn't matter to the poll.
     
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  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Choose wisely :D

    Also, none of this is final of course. If something gets implemented and then people don't like it, it can be rolled back.
     
  11. Bruhmoment

    Bruhmoment Prince

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    DON'T CHANGE MY BOY SHAKA!!
    Yea I'd like something to be changed for the iroquois.
    Eh, I don't think it's worth changing India. Don't forget to fix the Free Company no sound bug
    What about Shoshone? They should probably be changed, right now they're at a awkward position like iroquois, they kind of don't have anything really special about them
     
  12. Heinz_Guderian

    Heinz_Guderian Warlord

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    I am sorry, I just find it hilarious that you post this shortly after the "Poll about polls" or whatever it was. Very meta.

    OnT: Sweden: Makes sense to change the Carolean to a Fusilier, Tercio is too early and the caroleans were pretty much exactly when the fusiliers were around. Why remove the great general stacking though?
    Brazil: Why that change?
     
  13. InkAxis

    InkAxis King

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    I think we have enough polls.

    We can't change our votes??
    Uh, that's an issue. I'm not going to vote on all of them yet then.

    Overall, the one I support the most (and partially why I added DLL integration) is the America changes.
    Yes, the numbers are quite high, but I think they are justified for such a late UB.
    Also, that's more of an objection to the specific implementation that can be changed, not the idea. It's certainly better than the current Smithsonian, and the yields can easily be adjusted.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2021
  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Firstly, the original bonus was off the Hakkapeliitta, so it wasn't thematically tied to the Carolean. Caroleans also have 2 other unique promotions that carry forward: March and Grenadier. They are hogging. Grenadier should be made stronger anyways, because it looks weak and naked next to Overrun which gives the same 10 AoE damage on kills, but does other stuff too. And if we are buffing one of the Caroleans' 3 free promotions for unrelated reasons, they can afford to give one up to those less fortunate. Caroleans get double aura bonus from GGs anyways, the general stacking was another 15% on top of that, so it feels both repetitive and bloated.

    So, that brings us to those less fortunate: Siam's Naresuan's Elephant. The General stacking promotion ties perfectly with that unit, because the civilopedia page talks about the epic elephant duel between the King/Generals of Ayuttayah and Bagan. The unit is more thematically linked to carrying a Great General (Naresuan is a GG in the game already), and Siam's UU does not currently bring anything forward on upgrade.
    A few reasons for this one. Overall I think people agree that Brazilwood camps need to be fairly uncommon, because they are so good. They give an entire luxury resource copy after all. So, they need to have pretty strict placement rules.
    • Unique placement Mechanics
      • Brazilwood currently is forest/jungle, adjacent to another luxury, and not adjacent to another brazilwood. This effectively makes it a luxury adjacent version of the Mayan Kuna, or a forest version of the French Chateau. It shares all the placement prerequisites of both of those other UIs and then adds a third.
      • The only other UI that avoids fresh water is the Hunnic Eki, which doesn't have a Non-Adjacent requirement or a forest requirement, so if the Brazilwood is Forest/No 2 Adjacent/Avoids Water, then it's only 1/3 similar to the Eki, instead of being 2/3 similar to the Chateau. Unfortunately the 2/3 similarity to the Kuna is pretty unavoidable, unless you take Brazilwood out of forest/jungle entirely. This isn't as noticeable though, because No 2 Adjacent is the single most common improvement placement limitation.
      • The idea that you need a luxury to place another luxury, mechanically, seems repetitious and hum-drum.
    • Actual Biology / History
      • The Brazilwood, or Pernambuco tree, is a dry-weather tree, often found on hilltops with good drainage. It's not a rainforest tree in the Amazon, it's more of a mixed scrubland/Savannah kind of tree. It avoids moisture so much that Rio de Janeiro tried to plant them as ornamental trees in the city, and the humidity from the nearby ocean killed them all.
      • Meanwhile, the necessity for Brazilwood trees to be found next to... silk or truffles or whatever, has no biologically valid basis. It's pure game mechanic with no real-world meaning. But you've learned a little more about real Brazilwood trees just by me explaining why they shouldn't be allowed to be placed next to rivers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2021
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  15. BaldSamson

    BaldSamson Chieftain

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    In lieu of using the links will provide feedback here :

    America - Yes, Smithsonian has always been very underwhelming. A national wonder that comes in Industrial should feel more impactful. I like that the proposal adds flexibility. In my own personal tweaks - I have it giving a free policy, so the - 5% policy costs make sense to me - as you are usually behind on policies with America.

    Mongolia - Love the idea for Ordo, but not a fan of removing the bullying bonus. I realize the yields are out of control, but I would attack it from that angle. Sending your horde around demanding tribute is an interesting minigame that makes the Mongol experience seem unique. Zulu has greater ability to spam units as they don't need horses, and since they have less mobility, it makes more sense to be focusing on conquering with them. In my tweaks, I give zulu more yields from city capture. (Trait_YieldFromConquest). Also, I prefer to reduce their bonus movement to +1, but give them a high chance to withdraw.

    England - Yes, not sure on the yields though. They seem pretty weak. +3 culture / city and +25 scaling gold / building (in the city that builds it) in Medieval seems pretty meh. Maybe some extra iron and more yields for completing spying actions.

    Indonesia - Sure. That's a nerf to Invulnerability though, doesn't seem necessary. Fine with Recruitment/Heroism removal.

    Maya - No opinion.

    Zulu - Yes, except for the bullying bonus from Mongolia. They don't need the XP bonus for standing around in enemy territory, prefer designs that reward active play. You could give them an XP bonus on successful heavy tribute instead.

    India - Sure, I do something similar here and change Harrapan to give +1 to food/faith per river tile, rather than production from flood plains. I also give them some bonuses to Holy Sites at the trait level.

    Iroquois - Yes, the natural wonder bonus is so arbitrary and random. The AI usually plays them pretty well, and they tend to be one of the stronger civs in my games, so I don't know if the other changes are necessary, but I don't play them regularly.

    Siam - Yes, on the bonus yields, I do the same and make them +100%. I don't agree with the changes to General stacking and would leave that on Sweden. Siam does need something to make them better at maintaining alliances though. It might be easiest to give them a free promotion for the diplomat line.

    Sweden - Yes, except for general stacking.

    Songhai - No. Songhai is a terrifying neighbor, like Zulu and I like to keep them this way.

    Brazil - No, no freshwater access is completely arbitrary and doesn't make sense. Why not just remove the restriction and leave it? They are the classic warmonger target and their cities have a bit of extra culture isn't going to change the difficulty defending. Nevemind that the AI is aggressively building citadels and stealing your resources anyways.

    Carthage - No, they don't need it - always a contender in my games and when I've played them, that promotion always yields 2-3 free cities - usually CityStates.

    Korea - Can't comment too much, don't play them. They seem like a one dimensional civ, and the proposed change only seems to double down on that.
     
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  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    To clarify, I'm not proposing that Mongolia lose all their bonuses to tributing. They still have their flat +100% to tribute yields. I'm only proposing they give away their smaller ignoring CS alliance bonus to the Zulu. The Mongols are then the civ with the big fat multiplier, while the Zulu has all the more technical, math-intensive bonuses for calculating tribute yields.
    If you remove the restriction then they have the exact same build prerequisite as the Mayan Kuna improvement, and they would be the only two unique improvements with the exact same prerequisites.
     
  17. m0nk3yst1ck

    m0nk3yst1ck Chieftain

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    EE already simply renames Smithsonian Institute to Museum of Modern Art, so I don't think there'll be any issues here.
     
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  18. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    This amount of changes is a lot.

    No. Like, it’s absurd. Your not going to get meaningful data / responses. This is asking for a huge chunk of time to consider all of the changes.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2021
  19. Recursive

    Recursive Radiating Doom At 10x The Background Level Moderator

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    Moderator Action: Forum posts should not be used to publicly air out personal grievances with other members. Please resolve the issue privately or contact staff for help.
     
  20. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Update on where we stand on the polls as of Thursday morning
    Spoiler :

    America change from 1 standalone wonder to 3 Venice-style ones:
    11 - Yes
    4 - No​

    Mongol Changes, removing 1 of its 2 Tribute demand bonuses, and adding a unique GP tile to the Khan:
    8 - Yes to both the UA and Khan change
    3 - Yes for only the Khan Change
    2 - No to both​

    England White tower base UB change to Ironworks:
    6 - Yes
    3 - No​

    Indonesia addition of stronger Monopoly bonuses, Building resource bonuses for Garden, and Mystic Blade promotion rework:
    8 - Yes to all 3
    3 - Yes to only the Mystic Blade promotion changes
    1 - No to all​

    Maya Atlatl Strike nerf:
    7 - Yes
    3 - No​

    Zulu change, adding stronger tributing to UA, removing free XP from Iklwa, and making the Impi's bonus vs gunpowder stay on upgrade:
    7 - Yes to all
    1 - Yes to removing free XP from Iklwa only
    1 - Yes to making the Impi's bonus vs gunpowder stay on upgrade only
    1 - No to all​

    India changes, adding Barrage 1 to Naga Malla has a promotion that stays on upgrade, and taking the Flood Plains bonus off the Harrapan Reservoir:
    3 - Yes to Both
    4 - Yes to adding Barrage 1 to Naga Malla only
    3 - No to Both​

    Iroquois Changes, removing the Natural wonder combat bonus from their UA, adding production to camps to the longhouse, and adding Woodsman to Mohawk Warriors:
    6 - Yes to all
    3 - Yes to adding production to longhouses only
    2 - No to all​

    Swedish Carolean changes, moving it back to Fusilier, removing its great general stacking promotion (and giving it to Siam), and increasing the AoE damage from its Grenadier promotion:
    5 - Yes to all
    1 - Yes to moving it back to Fusiliers
    1 - Yes to removing Great General stacking
    1 - Yes to buffing Grenadiers​

    Songhai Mandekalu Cavalry change, moving it back to knight:
    7 - Yes
    3 - No​

    Brazilwood Camo build prerequisite change, changing it from forest/no 2 adjacent/luxury adjacent to forest/no 2 adjacent/no freshwater access
    7 - Yes
    4 - No​

    Carthage change, allowing Heavy Assault to carry forward on Upgrade
    10 - Yes
    2 - No​

    Korea Changes, Moving the %GP rate during GAs, moving the Science bonus during GAs to the UA, adding a bonus to GP Tiles to the Seowon, and moving the Seowon unlock back
    3 - Yes to both
    3 - Yes to the UA and UB bonus changes, except the tech unlock change
    3 - No to both​
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021

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