1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Vassal States ruining war

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Mr. Civtastic, Aug 4, 2006.

  1. maqueman

    maqueman Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Norway
    Well, the vassalage does not work as they intend. It does by no means drain the economy. I was playing with a friend of mine. He attacked his neighbour and forced them to become vassals. He then continued to attack another one, and with his vassal conquered it fast, making that one also a vassal. He copied this with 6-7 other nations, always getting more vassals to attack together with. None of the vassals were strong enough to dare a war against him. Doing this he became an unstoppable force. His economy was great because he could trade with his vassals as described earlier in this topic... So, I believe this is kind of an exploit.

    Sorry for bad spelling and english :) Was in a hurry!
     
  2. DrewBledsoe

    DrewBledsoe Veteran QB

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,634
    Location:
    Cheering For Mr Sanchez
    You're completely right, but its not an exploit, its a bug plain and simple.

    First check your vassals science rate (or if its too early for spies and you can't be bothered with world builder or have "no cheats" enabled, just check the "turns to research" on the bottom right of the screen), then go in and trade 6 items for an ever increasing amount of gold.

    Now go back and check the science rate, and you'll find it hasn't changed(well it hadn't when I did it, if someone finds different then I'll have to believe them).

    Therefore its a bug, and if somehow it is intended, then its still a bug, because its so exploitable as to fall under the category b.....well you get the message ;)
     
  3. Mr. Civtastic

    Mr. Civtastic Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    488
    Good responses on both sides.


    I just dont know if Vassels bring more harm then good. I tried playing a Prince game to see how Vassels work on easier lvls. It was interesting...when I would turn down the offer from another civ to become a vassel, they wouldnt vassel with someone else and attack me. This is 100% different from every Monarch game Ive played, so Im going to say that was either an anomoly or the way the operate on Prince. Anyways...

    Im not convinced that getting a Vassel gives more positives then negatives. You dont get any production bonuses...like importing workers from their civ as a type of slave labor, or using their "factories". You dont get any research bonuses, like demanding tech or getting some kind of tech bonus ("Your scientists will help mine...or else"....or make their scientists work for me or go to jail like the United States did with Nazi rocket scientists in WW2). You cant direct their troops in battle, or even suggest some kind of strategy...in that prince game when I would declare war, the ai seemed like it really wasnt that interested in helping me fight. AND you cant break the vassel agreement (I know they can), so when I took Spain as my vassel and one of her city's culture was forcing my city to riot, i couldnt just take over or wipe out that city. And when I was going for a domination win, I would have been better served kicking off the "Vassel" title and taking over what was left.

    In fairness, I'll list some of the positives Ive seen. The trade manipulation thing for money is nice, but thats the main one to me. If you get everyone to capitulate, thats a conquest win...that could save you a bunch of time in getting that victory. You can travel through their territory, but thats not that big of a deal. You can use their cities as air bases, but flight comes fairly late in the game and this puts more dirt of the carrier's grave.

    In my opinion, the negatives of a vassel state outweigh the positives.


    EDIT: I forgot to mention in the positives that vassel states will vote with the master. Totally forgot until my game today where Alexander's vassels all voted him in, while the "free" world voted for me. Unfortunately the free world wasnt enough votes.
     
  4. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,947
    Location:
    Nehwon
    I agree 100%.
     
  5. alexman

    alexman King

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2002
    Messages:
    789
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    The vassal's science rate is being reduced. It's just the display that does not get updated until the following turn.
     
  6. DrewBledsoe

    DrewBledsoe Veteran QB

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,634
    Location:
    Cheering For Mr Sanchez
    Ok thanks, but did you really intended it so that vassals can be used in this "cash cow" way, when you can demand all their resources off them, and then sell them back, plus all your own spares, until they are virtually running no science rate? Because this seems besides being highly exploitable as others have shown, to go so against the "must always maximize tech" policy that the AI always seeks to achieve, and will effectively end the game for a vassal civ, whether the vassalage was forced or voluntary.
     
  7. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,947
    Location:
    Nehwon
    I don't think soaking a vassal for all the money he's got is an "exploit", I think it's "realism."
     
  8. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Deity

    Joined:
    May 5, 2003
    Messages:
    4,366
    Location:
    Burlingame CA
    Sounds good!
     
  9. alexman

    alexman King

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2002
    Messages:
    789
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    Yes, it was intended, but admitedly it was a bad design. :mischief:
     
  10. maqueman

    maqueman Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Norway
    Yes, it's bad design. Atleast I don't think this was their intention :) It's obvious that this has to be regulated in some way, as I think the vassal idea is good but this is kind of exploitable...
     
  11. LibertyGeis

    LibertyGeis Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2006
    Messages:
    46
    I love the new vassal states even with all their flaws, if for no other reason than this --



    All this without having declared or bribed anyone into declaring a single war. I've never had such an uncivilized blast.

    Not to mention, with all the crazy blaring warhorns, all the AI's relationships are so much more fairly mixed and jumbled, far preferable to their usual player-hating lovefest.

    I must say I take issue with the whole "automatic war from protector" when a little civ being finished off is taken under the wing of another state. Not that this shouldn't be an option, but when it happens the new master should pop up and say (for instance) that "England is now under Mongolian protection. Cease your aggression or face the full might of our army!" to which I can respond "Agreed. We will withdraw our troops immediately," which causes a cease-fire, or "Try and stop us! (Mongolia enters the war!)" which will let it proceed as normal.

    As it stands, during my current game my shot at a Diplomatic win was completely blown when two civs who were Friendly with me took my enemies under their wing and (idiotically) went to war with me. Genghis declared war in spite of the fact that he lived half a continent away, his closed borders with Tokugawa and lack of astronomy meant he could never set foot on my soil, and his army was a third the size of mine (knights/maces vs. infantry). These factors coupled with a Friendly relationship would've otherwise meant we would never cross swords, but vassalage threw a completely senseless wrench into the gears.

    Still, with all their warts I'll take vassal states anyday. I can't help but love the world-war X-factor they add, which Defensive Pacts could never quite live up to.
     
  12. suspendinlight

    suspendinlight Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2005
    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    Urbana, IL
    I think this is by far the best thing that vassal states have added to the game. Nice screen btw.
     
  13. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,384
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Isidro, Argentina.
    Yes, you can. Check the "let´s talk about something else" option, and there choose "Why don´t you attack...", and then choose a city.

    About the GPT drain, I usually drain my weakers vassal coffers, and then I gift them techs, so I get a higher gold income and I can control their tech flow. When a vassal is somewhat strong in tech research, I tell them to research something I don´t have and so I can research to techs at once!

    And about the -10 on "you attacked our friend" modifiers you get thanks to the vassal wars, I´m making a mod that ups that threshold to Friendly relations, not pleased, along with some modifications to the attitude system.
     
  14. Colossian

    Colossian Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2005
    Messages:
    576

    I agree with you. My question is WHEN?
     
  15. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,384
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Isidro, Argentina.
    In exactly 2 months after release.
     
  16. microbe

    microbe Cascaded Mansion

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Messages:
    4,596
    It is interesting indeed, but I am not sure it's vassal state's fault per se.

    It's quite natural: if a civ is beaten to death, it turns to its best friends from help. Think about reality: even the US couldn't just arbitrarily declare war on Iraq or Iran or North Korea. It first had to seek concensus among its own allies, make sure no one will be on the enemy's side (Russian, China, etc), and then go to war. So of course the enemies would seek their own help if the opportunity is there. Diplomacy is very important before a war breaks out.

    Now, the biggest problem in CIV4 is that the diplomacy is still too simplified. I have no solutions myself, but I think one thing to make sure is that the AI considers ongoing wars (and ongoing international relationships) when accepting a vassal.
     
  17. Bushface

    Bushface Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,550
    Location:
    Torquay, England
    There seem to be two conflicting ideas mentioned above. In one case, the master sells resources to the vassal, gaining gold and reducing the vassal's science rate to zero. In the other, the master lets the vassal do research and gains extra techs - assuming the vassal can actually research something the master does not already have. But the master has to pay extra maintenance costs, and gets credit for only half of the vassal's land (does this make a Conquest victory impossible ?). It would be simpler if the vassal just had to pay tribute every turn: failure to pay being a possible cause for war. And capitulation could mean that the capitulating civ is immediately assimilated into the victor's empire.
    The above takes no account of the diplomatic peculiarities discussed in the preceding posts, which as yet I have had no experience of.
     
  18. Soneji

    Soneji Prince and Great Steward

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2006
    Messages:
    896
    Location:
    Dùn Èideann
    I have a game just now that I am playing Cyrus, have about 45% of the land mass etc. Mansa is bordering me, great ally and has helped before with wars. I have one vassal state, single city on an island. He has Japan as his vassal some 4-5 cities. Mansa and I are continually trading techs, etc

    I move all my navy to England, which borders Mansa on the other side of the map - roughly 6 cities. Now I declare war, no problem no one else jumps in. Sit and take out Churchills resources, mines etc from aircraft carriers while destroyers are taking chunks of of their city defences. I move three stacks of modern armour each with a general, through Mansa territory into England. Nuke London, then take three cities. Then, next turn he turns vassal - Mansa, Japan and England against me and a one city nation.

    It just doesn't make sense. He already has a vassal, why take england under its wing when I was no more than 6 turns from conquering them? All he has done is start a world war that he can't finish. When before we had defensive pacts etc? Just don't get it.
     
  19. Commander Bello

    Commander Bello Say No 2 Net Validations

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2003
    Messages:
    3,858
    Location:
    near Koblenz, Germany
    Will this be addressed in a patch?
     
  20. Jaca

    Jaca Warlord

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    264
    I thought so to when having two vassals, of which only Alexander was capable of researching stuff. I treated both of them well in order to try benefit from their science, as two other civs had made a Permanent Alliance. Th first tech all is well, I can trade. The second time I ask Alex to research Medicine, but after he has it, and he alone, he doesn't want to trade it with me, and it seems I can't demand it either.

    I guess this must be intentional, but was a bit surprised.

    Jaca
     

Share This Page