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Vassal states, why do they come so late?


Oct 27, 2005
In my opinion the option of vassal states comes to late in the game. Usually they come between 700 and 1100 AD which is understandable as in reality thats when feudalism evolved and the whole lordship thing began.

But look at for example at the Persian Empire in 500 BC. How would the way they ruled their empire be called than? They conquered their neighbors and installed a local king of themselves who was to be the puppet of the King of Kings himself. Almost all local cultural habits and religion was left in place they were just to supply tribute and military when required. Some kingdoms were just requested to give the King of Kings water and land as a token of their obedience only by threatening them with military might. And many did so. All this seems to me like a similar system as how vassal states work in Civ4.

Although it is not so clear at all how these two relate exactly, to me the Persian system of satraps and vassal states in Civ4 show many resemblances.

Thats why I plead for a similar system in Civ4 or for an earlier option of vassal states. As I like to build huge empires right from the ancient ages on, I really miss a feature like this. So many times I've wanted an AI to capitulate to me but instead I could only make peace with them couldn't even demand a thing because all these features aren't enabled yet.

In civ4 I want to be able to be the King of Kings right from the 2000 BC's and on!
I agree. There should be some toned down vassalage possible before feudalism. Maybe if your warscore is very high and you could ask for a lot min peace negotiations, but you don't, you get some sort of relationship boost. So they will be more kindly to you, or something.
Persia must have built the Oracle first and slingshoted feudalism. Greece probably stole it and relocated it and said hey look what we built!. :p :D
And somehow they managed to draw philosophy from the stolen Oracle. But despite that impressive slingshot China was still first to found Taoism :lol:
History is very weird...
Sheer foolishness I say! Persia just got really jammy with their starting scout and goody hutted priesthood, monarchy and feudalism after having a try for Buddhism but getting pipped at the post by the Indians.

Far-fetched, I know, but I did actually get monarchy and then feudalism from huts in a recent Brennus/Celts game. How outrageously lucky is that?
Actually, there exists the option of demanding tribute. In the diplomacy. When you have a high enough power rating, the AI might aggree to your demands. This will mean a 10 turn peace treaty.
In defense of the status quo, though, I have to admit that the timeframe for vassal states might be there for gameplay reasons. It would just be too easy to become a vassal in, say, 3000 BC, and then use that as a shield behind which the vassal launches a culture win or a spaceship....
Yes Bring it on. I like the ancient period, its got style. Its a shame to have to wait so long to start having real diplomacy. By which time the empires have often become quite static.
you don't get feudalism till around 700 AD?

if making vassals is important to your strategy it's pretty simple to beeline to feudalism while still in the BC era.
No beelining would suck. I play on immortal and usually the early wars stagnate my economy completely so Ive already fought my first wars before even having alphabet or something, beelining isnt an option here. Also If id first research feudalism before starting a war the whole point of my request is gone because I'd have to wait till medieval times to start creating a monster empire of many vassals, you see.

Can some give it a try to mod in vassal states when researching Writing or at least with Monarchy? I would really love to give it a try with ancient vassal states.
It's really simple Persia didn't declare any state religion [because they didn't get any cool splash screen for Zorastoarianism] so when it conquered countries (ie cities) they still got culture from native religions.
Not really useful to anybody here, but last night I got Feudalism in 1200BC with the Oracle. Never seen that happen before, was pretty cool. I had no Iron Working yet, but I could build longbows...
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