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Vassals Discussion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by lankypeter, Aug 7, 2007.

  1. lankypeter

    lankypeter Chieftain

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    I just wanted to pose a few questions about Vassals.

    1. When you have the opportunity to make a CPU player a vassal of yours, what are the pros and cons of accepting?

    2. If a CPU civ becomes your vassal, and things go poorly, can you attack them later on (obviously with relations penalties) or are you prohibited from ever warring with them once they become your vassal?

    3. I know (or at least think) that Vassals are only responsible for providing resources (not cities or techs).

    To follow that up, (a) does that include gold? and (b) are the resources ever "red" in the menu, meaning that you cannot even bring that up during the discussion?

    If the latter is the case, does that mean you only have (potentially) two options: (1) try to better your relations, or (2) (if possible) attack them and take over their cities?
     
  2. Joosty

    Joosty Chieftain

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    You can not declare war on your vassal, and I also believe that you can't cancel the vassal relation either. Only your vassal can demand his own freedom, leaving you with the choice to go to war for it with him.

    The con of having a vassal is that you're sort of stuck with it, and that your rival civs will be upset that you have a vassal (a diplo penalty with all leaders). The good thing is that vassals territory count towards your domination scores I think, and you can demand a resource as tribute (special option in the diplo screen)

    I usually don't accept vassals anymore. I get tired with the diplomacy penalty I incur combined with the lack of options on my side for terminating the deal. Also, the AI used to be erratic in previous civ versions demanding to be independent one turn, only to request to become a vassal during the next few turns, and repeat this pattern many times.
     
  3. greggbert

    greggbert Chieftain

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    1) Pros, you have an instant war partner with a good army and access to all the resources you want, Cons are that your city maintence costs are a little higher and some of the other civs may not like your new vassal and their bad feelings will bleed to you
    2) They must alwaqys give you the resources, or they must declare war, but you can bait them into attacking you by just asking for every single resource they have! Or it will weaken them to the point that they will become irrelavant.
    3) They are much more likely to provide you tech when you ask for it because of the good relations. No resources are red, and they can say no to trades for gold, just like anyone else. YOu can't force them to buy one of your resources for GPT, but usually any AI CIV will give you gold per turn for a resource they need!
     
  4. Poonchance

    Poonchance Chieftain

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    My problem is when you are going to war with one Civ, and the AI of other CIV (that you were friendly with, and also at war with the first Civ) vassalizes your enemy. Guess what? You are now at war with your Friendly War Ally!! Or...did this get fixed in BTS since warlords? This was my #1 for not liking Vassal states.
     
  5. Amask

    Amask Oogala Boogala

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    Location:
    Toronto
    that was never the case
    you are now at peace with your original enemy
    which is much less annoying but still annoying
     
  6. lulu135

    lulu135 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
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    Vassals can make their resources red. I have a game with a vassal who n I have a -20 diplomatic score with because I nuked him frequently before he surrendered. Every resource is red. The mouse over says "surely you must be joking".

    It really defeats the purpose of vassals. :(
     
  7. DisruptiveIdiot

    DisruptiveIdiot Chieftain

    Joined:
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    I only get "surely you must be joking" when I have the resource. Are you sure it's not that?
     
  8. Lars_Domus

    Lars_Domus Say No 2 Net Validations

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    Don't forget that having vassals gives extra happiness in your cities! I actually think that's a good deal - take your neighbor's good cities, leave them in charge of the crappy ones (that you'd raze anyway), and get some free happiness :mwaha: Later on, vassals are also great targets for spamming corporate offices.
     
  9. PimpyMicPimp

    PimpyMicPimp Regrets His Username.

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    I think the whole vassal mechanic could use a bit of a revamp. The master definatly needs to be able to break the agreement, especially for capitulated vassal! That drives me up the wall!
     
  10. Littlelisa

    Littlelisa Chieftain

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    I turn Vassals off in my games now

    The AI seems far to quick to become vassals to each other. While its hard work for the player to gain a vassal (often have to wipe out all but 1-2 cities), the AI can take 1-2 cities and the other civ gives in.

    I had a game where Zulus had 2 vassals already, attacked Romans, took 2 of their 12 cities, they became vassals.
    Then another civ was attacked, 1 city lost and they became vassals.

    All the while i had captured about 60% of the cities and land of a civ i was at war at and he refused to give in, so i made peace when Zuku and all their vassals declared war on me.
    As the civ i had been fighting was weakened the Chinese and their vassal attacked them, 5 turns later they give in and become chinese vassals without losing a city :crazyeye:
     
  11. carl corey

    carl corey Chieftain

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    I've hated the vassal system at the beginning, but now I absolutely love it! In my last game with the Dutch I have 3 vassals for now. Two of them are on the same continent with my future victim(s), and I only have 3 cities there. I pumped them all up with all techs (I'm slightly behind the other AIs) so that they'll be able to really help in the wars. Especially with intercontinental wars it's easier to vassalize someone than to conquer them entirely, and in my case all wars were intercontinental. :lol:

    And in two Warlords game with Toku & Asoka I vassalized almost everyone to obtain Domination victories. It's much easier and much faster than the normal route. I had almost instant war declarations after vassalizing the previous enemy. Just needed the time to get my troops to the new front and off we go.
     
  12. Underdawg

    Underdawg Chieftain

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    I don't know... I usually find after taking most of the border cities and wiping out around 75+% of their troops they will capitulate, some AI capitulate easier than others it seems.

    sometimes I intentionally not take a city, letting live a single defender just so the AI can pour in more of their troops... making the city a killing zone, it's like shooting fish in a barrel...
     
  13. Zetetic Apparat

    Zetetic Apparat Chieftain

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    The only time when I've really loved vassals is when a neighbour comes and offers. Just makes me feel loved. ;)
     
  14. kokoras

    kokoras Bizarre

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    Vassal states are a good deal if you want to have ''allies'' that just don't say no.Vassal declares war every time you do it, plus they vote (Apostolic-U.N) for the master in every election, it is a good way to win a diplomatic victory too, even if you don't have the best relations with the other civs.
    Althought i agree that the master sould be able to break the aggrement, waiting for another civ to do this will not hapen easily specialy if you are powereful. In my current game i have three vasal states, one of those (Germans)wan't try to break the deal even if they have the chance, and i quess that this happens because i am stronger than AI civ.On the other hand AI vassal breaks the aggrement much more easier, at least that is what happend in the last to games i have played.
     
  15. winddbourne

    winddbourne Chieftain

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    Yes vassals make a nice start for diplomatic victory, and I recently found out that if you vassalize everyone you get the conquest victory, which previously was difficult to get because you'd wind up with domination first. I never used to like vassals, but I'm almost addicted to them now.

    I also agree that you should be able to end the situation under certain terms. I wouldn't say any time you want, but given sufficient reason you should be able to let them go.
     
  16. UncleJJ

    UncleJJ Chieftain

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    A great use for vassals is economically.

    It is not just that you can get their resources but you also get a market for your spare resources. They still need corn or fish for health and spice for happiness. So give (loan) them the resources to get them on their feet after you've vassalised them and their cities will grow bigger and better. Then renegotiate the deal later (after at least 10 turns) when they have spare gold. This is a good way to make money from spare resources with deals that are not going to be broken by war or diplomacy.

    Your cities (and his) get trade routes with your vassal's cities even when running Mercantilism. This is especially valuable with intercontinental trade routes.

    Once corporations come around then vassals can be a great way to spread around the corporate goodness. You can often control how much benefit they get and maintenance they pay by selling them just the right amount of resources (say 2 fish and a clam plus rice for Sid's Sushi). Often you only need seed them with the first Office and they'll do the rest free of set up charges to you. Massive mutual benefit but you need to be careful not to bankrupt them.

    Religions if you have a shrine can be spammed into your vassal for extra money. Again they sometimes spread the religion themselves if they build monastries or are in OR. Then there is the Apostolic Palace religion. If both you and your vassal both get that religion together you can soon be controlling what goes on even if you didn't build the AP.
     
  17. glosrob

    glosrob Chieftain

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    Do the cities of your vassal ever switch to your Civ due to cultural influence (like other AI cities do) or are they immune as they are technically 'on your side'?
     
  18. lankypeter

    lankypeter Chieftain

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    Is that really the case? I will have to look when I get a chance, but I am pretty sure that I had Vassalized Ghandi and during the next election for the AP (which I controlled) he was the only other candidate, and he voted for himself, not me. I still won, but still, my Vassal went the other way (even if it was for himself).

    As for me, I tend to try and conquer neighbors and vassalize more distanced Civs, when possible. That way I kill off neighbors to increase land mass and still have vassals that enjoy my presence and bow down to kiss my ring.
     
  19. torsoboy

    torsoboy Chieftain

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    Also, Vassal cultural borders cannot encroach upon the fat cross of any of your (non-rioting) cities. This makes it possible to steal resources that were originally in their cultural borders.

    On another note, I've found that if I demand a resource from a vassal, they regularly stop the deal the next turn or very soon after. What's the point of having a on/off switch like that? I'd prefer conquering the resource for a steady supply myself.
     
  20. greggbert

    greggbert Chieftain

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    Will vassals broker or sell the techs you give them? That's a good question. I hope not!

    Also what if your vassal had founded a religion and built the special building, do you get the bonus where you can see all the other civs cities with that religion?
     

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