Vast Continent - No Rubber?!!

[BlackFiend]

I have a tough situation that I could use advice on.

I'm playing Zulu against Chinese, Persians, Germans, Russians, French and English. The babylonians are no more. I'm aiming for domination, but this game has morphed on me, so I'm wandering. HUGE map by the way.

I've had the slight tech lead for a while. I aborted a war with the Chinese when I noticed the Germans were weak and had wine to take. I launched only 4 Galleons toward them, as it would have been enough in order to take the lands I wanted. They're capital is about 12 turns travel by sea from me, and we are Industrial age.

Midway to them, my mutual protection pact gets fired off. Persians and the English are at war. Grrr! Literally half of the globe gets dominoed into fighting the English.

So I direct the Galleons there...with an eye towards stealing their coal and ripping through them like a hot knife since I was more advanced. (They had no cavalry and they are my mainstays.) I can't let the Persians and everyone else have all of the spoils of war.

It takes me 15 turns to get to them. They gain nationalism and TADA rifleman. Moreover, they finally, somehow, secured some saltpeter and Cavalry. One of my galleons has a veteran group of rifleman, another is stacked with Vet Calv and one elite. The final has an army of all Cav.

So I beach and attack. I take city one easy, though I discover he had a cav and rifleman! The next city, the AI fudges the numbers. A cav dies taking out a spearmen! The next round, he counterattacks and I kill him with Rifleman defenders on a hill. I push again, and a lone rifleman redlines my Army! The cav take the rifleman, but then 2 of them die taking out a Cav that he has defending!

So my attack is near aborted. I may have to content myself to one city and heal up under constant onslaught.

Meanwhile...I hit Replaceable Parts. Only to discover that I have not a single bit of rubber on my whole vast continent. However, the Germans have a satelite island that has 4 sources on their alone. All 4 of course...are within German city liimits.

In order for me to get those cities, I'll need to travel almost 24 turns! I could have SMOKED the germans when I had a chance, but now its lost. The germans will rebound, and I will be dependent on a critical element for 30 turns or more. The expeditionary force already out isn't strong enough to do the job. I'll need to raise a whole new army, far more massive than I've personally ever done to take it from the entrenched Germans. They will be open for trades, but they are cantankerous towards me. They pay little even for critical resources like Coal (offered 7 gpt for Gold). They charge exorbitant for anything I wish from them.

What would you do? Should I, GHASP, go back to the old saved game and rewrite history, or do I suck it up and fling a war halfway across the globe for rubber?

I'm fearful of what takes place when oil shows up in just a 20 turns. I'll be half way toward the Germans, while they've had 10 to 15 turns to discover and profit from their rubber compounds. If Oil isn't on my continent (and it is the largest land mass owned by two of the most powerful civs, Chinese and Me, the Zulus) then I am up the creak.

Meanwhile, the Chinese have so filled themselves with cities, that they are chopping down my precious Jungle that serves as the defacto dividing liine between us. One more tree cut means I must act to cut them off the hardway. That war will be like no other. They are equals in every way except a massive army. I've denied them horses for a while, so no cavalry, but they are littered with rifleman as of recent along the border. They will surely create a massive SOD (stack of death). So I must get leverage and quickly. Fortunately, they have no rubber either!

 

[psweetman1590]

Key for a huge war against China: ARTILLERY. A stack of fifty or so will cut almost any SOD down to easily managable size, though more is almost always better, and when it doubt, double it!

What would you do? Should I, GHASP, go back to the old saved game and rewrite history, or do I suck it up and fling a war halfway across the globe for rubber?

I'd trade for it just long enough to upgrade your own riflemen, build some infantry, and ready your invasion force. Cancel the deal just before you declare war, and you'll have yourself your own rubber supply, and will not have been without it for more than three turns. I'd wait to get that rubber before declaring war on China, but if you feel confident, go for it.

 

[BlackFiend]

Interesting. So, trade for the Germans, no matter the cost? Though the cost of war with them is far greater it seems...I have never played where I was dependent on another civ for sustenant resources.

That will be interesting.

Meanwhile, key up for war with the Chinese. Begin the invasion.

Thanks for the input...but I 'm not sure about trading for a vital product. It just goes against the grain...

 

[psweetman1590]

I only advise trading for it while you have to. I would be preparing an invasion force to take the rubber by force while buying it from the Germans. Then, like I said, cancel the deal just before declaring war, capture the rubber, and you're set.

 

[AznWarlord]

I would let the titans kill each other. Boost your defenses against China, and declare war on them with the germans, who should have infantry. So when all the big guns are out of germany, keep trying to contact China to make peace. With Germany and China fighting, start building up an attack on the Germans, before they conquer a big peace of China. Find a nearby rubber supply in Germany and head towards it. Conquer the city that's getting the rubber and defend it to the max. Build a harbor so you can trade it to mainland and make peace with Germany, hopefully before the Infantry come knocking (if you're lucky, they'll be too occupied with china). Upgrade your Riflemen to Infantry and with germany, declare war on China, and hopefully you can take China out and gain a deal of land.

This strategy depends a lot on luck though. Also it's hard to understand I think, so i'll summarize it up in bullets.

- Build up defense
- Declare war on China with Germany.
- With German infantry in China, make Peace ASAP.
- Find a city in Germany with Rubber.
- Build up attack
- Attack and conquer city in Germany, and hold it until you can make peace.
- Build a harbor to share the rubber with your real cities. Upgrade all your riflemen.
- With a China weakened by Germany and with Infantry of your own, attack China and get som land.

If you don't get it ( I can barely understand it myself reading it back ) then I guess I can't really help.

 

[Pyrrhos]

Reload and re-write history a wiser man! Sure it's "cheating", but having already benefited by making the mistake go back and see how you "should" have played it.

As an ex-army officer, the worst mistake you did was change your plan midway through. You reacted to the course of events instead of dictating it. Go back, take the Germans out and sod those eejits who declared war on England! What obligation do you have to them, really? If it bugs your conscience, send a token force that gets wiped out whilst you gain your main objective!

 

[soul_warrior]

Reload and re-write history a wiser man! Sure it's "cheating", but having already benefited by making the mistake go back and see how you "should" have played it.

wrong.
live by your decisions.
next time you will remember what could happen.

As an ex-army officer, the worst mistake you did was change your plan midway through. You reacted to the course of events instead of dictating it. Go back, take the Germans out and sod those eejits who declared war on England! What obligation do you have to them, really? If it bugs your conscience, send a token force that gets wiped out whilst you gain your main objective!

very good point.
try always to decide on your goals and go for them.
if you get drawn into a MPP war, send a token force.
if you will gain more from that war, by all means.
if not, stick to the original plan.

im sure you can win this.

trade for rubber now, build up, and in 20 turns, grab your rightfully owned rubber.

BTW, what level is this?
if its anything below deity, you can get it.

also post a save for a looksee?

 

[Delphi456]

I agree with soul_warrior, don't reload. Reloading is like cigarettes - only takes one time to form a bad habit.

Here's another quote by an ex-army officer, George Patton: "Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom".

Welcome to 'bottom'.

 

[AznWarlord]

Plan B. Go one some war rampage and declare war on everyone. Strongerunits don't necessarily mean you lose. I've mentioned Guerilla losing to Med Infantry, you could actually win.

Well maybe not declare war with everyone. I'dtake China out though.

 

[Aceman101]

Key for a huge war against China: ARTILLERY. A stack of fifty or so will cut almost any SOD down to easily managable size, though more is almost always better, and when it doubt, double it!

What about bombars! No one has mentioned them. And I heard they have lethal land and sea bombardment in complete, which is like .

 

[Sashie VII]

Bombers are more expensive, comes later, and needs a turn to be rebased if something you want dead is out of it's range. And artilleries have defensive bombard FWIW. Plus IMHO leaders would be nice for armies in this situation, bombers can't help you with that since they kill off the enemy.

 

[Aceman101]

I didn't say not bring artillery. I just meant bring about 50 artillery and 20 bombers. Knock down their hit points with artillery and kill them with bombers so you have no lost troops. But bring about 20 infantry to defend the artillery. But I agree that it is a problem rebasing all the time .

 

[BlackFiend]

What I decided to do was screw the Mutual Protection pact. No need taking out the continent. I took my city, and deserted it. I keyed up for, what became an attrition/squeeze attack on Germany.

Here is what I did:
The loses on the English continent were too great. It fell. I redirected the more potent army out of English territory. Tasked it to assault Germany on it heartland, and sent along a 3 new Galleons with Cav and Rifles. The boats would be reused to ship off captive Germans and, or desert if things went horrible. (I hate losing men!)

I hit Germany at its massive port side. Chief among the ports was Bremen. It was a size 10 and producing well. It was also the closest German city I can reach that was within striking distance of...TADA...Berlin.

Took down Bremen with the force, while forcefully keeping the Army, Cav, and rifles barrelling for Berlin. Held on to Bremen for a round and rushed a Harbor. With no time or force enough to truly defend it (and risking a flipping), I made the decision to outsource the Harbor port.

Outsource?

Yes...outsource. I sold Bremen to the Germans biggest ally, the French. They were also my long time friend.

Why did I do this?
1. It keeps the ports open for me when I take a German city with trade network to Bremen. If things took a turn with France, I'm screwed anyways.
2. Berlin being the true objective. I didn't have the troops to maintain the objective city AND the port city.
3. Finally, if the Germans were stupid enough to take it back, though deserted, they start a war with France. That would have been acceptable for me, and France would still be making their payments, etc for such a beautiful city no longer theres.

LUCK
Luck had fell on my side as I was engaging and battling through German territory to Berlin. The Persians and the Russians declared war on Germany once I had taken the initial flak and reduced its military.

So once I took Berlin (realizing pretty quickly that I messed up by not including my cannon in the strategy!), my goal was to hold it by any means necessary until the others put enough hurting on Germany.

And a hurting the Persians did do. The Russians ended up losing a city, but the Persian cleaned house...razing two cities I think. Couldn't tell since all that remained were some oddly placed land improvements.

PEACE
The Germans barraged me with infantry and longbowmen. But the men held. Once the resistance was crushed, I was tempted to foray for a second city...but decided to see if Germany was willing to talk terms.

Indeed, they did. The Germans had two rubber cities on the Persian continent (which I mistakenly thought was an Island! NOT! Need better maps, Shaka!!!) that still stood. The third was taken by the Persians. Those cities were reduced down to 1 and 2 pops respectively. The first, of the two was coastal, but no harbor. Sweet! (I suspect that the other rubber city was the one supplying Berlin)

So I offered a captured English city and one of my fringe useless cities for two of their cities. One was a size 4 on a 2 square island, the other being the objective...the Rubber coastal city. I had to toss a few more coins on top to seal the deal since I wanted all of their maps as well.

So now, the Zulu have Berlin and rubber, including two great wonders. The Persians are still on the war path. I settled peace with the English as the Persians seemed to relent on them. The russians also took peace with the English.

CONCLUSION:
4000 years of peace was shattered by a ripping war. I'm now in tech lead by two techs, and I offered a second captured English city to the Germans for diplomatic edge.

Next goal: China.

The Zulu have begun retooling, and I'm working now to build the Germans up into formitable allies into the next age. With their help, I can open a two flank ground war with the Chinese when it comes. MPPs are incredibly powerful...for good and for great ill. It will be critical when I begin operations against the Chinamen.

I will need to leave a large permanent garrison at Berlin for the forseeable future. In time, I may even sell it back to the Germans. Not sure though. Its tasty burger, as my man Samuel L. Jackson would say. It could play an integral piece when it comes time for the WAR that ends all WARZ.

 

[psweetman1590]

What about bombars! No one has mentioned them. And I heard they have lethal land and sea bombardment in complete, which is like .

Bombers are luxeries, not necessities. They help a good military become great, and add flexibility.

But to get a good military in the first place, one needs artillery. They are cheaper, are better for reducing a city's garrison, can be transported on rails, come five or so techs sooner, and don't require oil (which can be a deciding factor).

In the OP, the problem set forth had not reached the point where bombers were available anyways.

 

[Aceman101]

IMO artillery are more usefull and better. But bombers are great too!

What about those 1 tile Island cities owned by enemies, being defended with Mech infantry and has civil defense which means you could not bombard the town without bombers because artillery can't bomberd from ships, And only marines can attack since they're amphibious? Which means marines would have no chance against mech infantry?

What do you do about that? get bombers! Or naval units to bombard but even a 1 hp mech would have more chance than a marine.

What about those enemy SOD that are coming and no troops are around. But lots of bombers could kill them... But the problem is with a SOD coming you really would need... LOTS OF BOMBERS!!!

I Agree what you are saying psweetman1590 but there are some situations were bombers can save the day.

And that's probably what you meant, but I'm just pointing out that they can also be more useful than artillery in some situations .

 

[Sashie VII]

there are some situations were bombers can save the day.

Which sparked a memory of one instance when they did

I saved Temujin from destruction by giving him a two-tile island to my north. Then at the end of the Industrial Age, I got bored going for space and decided to go for conquest instead.

Problem is, I can't spare some of my troops to go visit Temujin.

Since I had some bombers to spare...in the end my elite Horseman from my very first AA war ended the Mongolian line

 

[psweetman1590]

What about those 1 tile Island cities owned by enemies, being defended with Mech infantry and has civil defense which means you could not bombard the town without bombers because artillery can't bomberd from ships, And only marines can attack since they're amphibious? Which means marines would have no chance against mech infantry?

Battleships.

There are ZERO situations where there is no choice but to use bombers.
Bombers are NEVER a necessity. Yes, they are damn useful, but artillery beat them in the use department any day.

 

[Aceman101]

Battleships.

Oh come on, you really think a 1 hp mech Infantry fortified with civil defense in the town couldn't defend against a marine?

Since the mech has only a quarter of it's full health (Say it's veteren) 3 quarters will be taken away from 18, what's that, 6. So the Mech Infantry has 6 defense now. But that isn't correct because the Mech Infantry was fortified so he's got 27 defence. Now take three quarters of that and it will be 9. A marine has 12 attack but with civil defense the Mech would have 12 defense. That's equal to the Marine, so theres a 50-50 chance that either will win.

A mech infantry has 18 defence, 27 when fortified and 36 when fortified and civil defense in the town. If you also had TOW infantry that knocked off a hitpoint on the marine before it attacked, then the Mech would have a greater chance of winning unless the attacking Marine was an elite. Even so it would still be 50-50.

And if the Coastal town\Island was well guarded it wouldn't just have 1 Mech infantry... And it would probably have bombers . I know I'm getting out of the situation but...

Spoiler :

In the end it's a 50-50 battle .

There are ZERO situations where there is no choice but to use bombers.
Bombers are NEVER a necessity. Yes, they are damn useful, but artillery beat them in the use department any day.

Now your just being silly! your saying there are Zero situations were theres no choice but to use bombers. Well what would you use to bomb a 1 tile Island other than naval units? What if there was a big stack of troops and you had a big stack of bombers that could just kill them?

It's nice to have an argue conversation though... .

 

[Sashie VII]

Well what would you use to bomb a 1 tile Island other than naval units? What if there was a big stack of troops and you had a big stack of bombers that could just kill them?

Bombers are still not the only choice.

There are ZERO situations where there is no choice but to use bombers.

True, but there's a lot of situations where they're the most convenient

 

[Aceman101]

Well what would you use then to kill defenders of a 1 tile Island?