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Vatican: It's ok to believe in aliens

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Masquerouge, May 14, 2008.

  1. Leonel

    Leonel Breakfast Connoisseur

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    Probably laser roulette or space blackjack! Don't really matter as long as we can milk the alien authorities on Earth for everything they're work from guilt tripping them with tales of how millions of humans died from drinking too much space firewater and living in the Detroit reservation.
     
  2. holy king

    holy king Deity

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    if i said that about jews wanting reparations and their articles of virtu back... :rolleyes:
     
  3. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    What if the message is 2011 years old and consists of "Don't fall for it, it's a trick!"
     
  4. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    This statement clearly show that they have rejected the Biblical basis of Christianity. The Bible is clear that the whole of creation is under the curse.

    Romans 8:19-23 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    20 For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    21 Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    Unless of course the New testament has nothing to do with Christianity as apparently does the Old Testament. :rolleyes:
     
  5. Masquerouge

    Masquerouge Deity

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    Mmmh... does your view imply that no sentient life could have existed before the fall of Man?
     
  6. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Maybe: or just that it necessarily fell too.
     
  7. Sidhe

    Sidhe Deity

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    Since the likelihood that we were the first sentient life in the Universe, seems numerically at least somewhat remote. It would have to be the latter.

    The good thing about meeting aliens is, that if we met say 40 species, and all of them believed in a monotheistic God with similar attributes, then that would pretty much be hard to discount as evidence that God exists. If on the other hand there was no real similarity, then that would also be hard to discount as counter evidence.
     
  8. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    I'm obviously stepping into the middle of some sort of a heated debate.. about nothing.

    but..

    "I do not believe in God" --> an acknowledgement that God may exist
    "I believe God doesn't exist" --> no such acknowledgement
     
  9. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    No, certainly not. It's amusing. You can keep it up.

    However, I must say you fail to annoy me because you make no sense whatever :lol:

    Well, the key descriptive is people who have read more than you. It seems pretty clear from the arguments offered.

    Given up trying to answer relevant questions and resorting to a similar brand of amusing name-calling before exiting? Sounds like that was a pretty accurate imagery.

    Semantics? These are very legitimate questions. If they are semantics and they are not relevant, why don't you give me some answers that would dismiss them with superior knowledge or logic? It seems to me that you still can't answer them.
     
  10. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    No acknowledgement that god exists is not an acknowledgement that god does not exist?
     
  11. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    It's not.. that's what I'm saying.

    When I say "I do not believe that God exists" I am not saying "I believe that God does not exist"

    That would mean something else.
     
  12. Eran of Arcadia

    Eran of Arcadia Stormin' Mormon Retired Moderator

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    I don't think it is "hilarious"; on the contrary, if someone believes something, superstition or no, they will generally take that belief into account whenever it has other implications. You might as well mock them for saying that the aliens are created by God. They are Catholic. They believe in Original Sin. Nothing arrogant in believing in something you believe in.
     
  13. Masquerouge

    Masquerouge Deity

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    Fair enough. But I was under the impression CH was thinking that the Fall as depicted in Genesis (with Adam and Eve and humans) corrupted all creation, other aliens included.
     
  14. Leonel

    Leonel Breakfast Connoisseur

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    I don't see anything in there saying that Earth is the only world with life.
     
  15. Sidhe

    Sidhe Deity

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    Not really surprising when the people at the time had no idea they were so mind numbingly insignificant in the Universe that the very idea that a God would cater just for one of the massive amounts of possible lifeforms was just ignorant. Why would you mention other life, when as far as you knew stars were holes in the sky through which heaven shined its light or whatever. Suffice to say more by luck than judgement it seems The Bible was written at times when we were so "backward" that considering life existing in a mass of stars was unlikely to say the least. If they had I have no doubt they would have written stuff in to make sure they counted such planets into the matrix. Of course if God existed you would of expected him to mention that we were a part of a massive whole, where life had existed for aeons, but weirdly enough he remained silent on the matter, go figure?
     
  16. Holycannoli

    Holycannoli Deity

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    Why's that? Why does he have to mention anything? Don't take that as some sort of support that he doesn't exist, just because aliens weren't mentioned. I don't remember dinosaurs being mentioned either.
     
  17. Sidhe

    Sidhe Deity

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    Conveniently God never mentions anything outside of human experience of the time. It's one of those issues that makes the whole thing somewhat open to question. No he doesn't have to mention anything, but it would of created a hell of a lot more believers if anyone ever did in The Bible. Seems he was trying to make people unbelievers, by not giving anyone the means to make up their mind. I tell you what killed or fatally wounded religion, it wasn't science it was philosophy, the rise of reason over faith. The very fact that the world has never been given enough to hold one faith, or even keep it.
     
  18. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    How so? Please explain. And, pray tell, which statement is atheism making?

    I want to see how you get out of this.
     
  19. Great Librarian

    Great Librarian Warlord

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    You are stepping into some sort of heated debate. For me, it's over. Please, try to carry on, but you'll realize soon that your interlocutor in this does not respond to reason. Take the time to read aelf's responses, they're a triumph of something I cant' say or I'll be moderated for 'flaming' and of something else I can't say or I'll be moderated for 'flaming'. If you want to know, I believe I refer to your interlocutor using those words in my response to him. He also seems to think that other people who were a part of that discussion have read more than me and that this nullifies any argument I might make. I don't know how he supports that claim, but I think he's either taking them at their word or making it up and he's certainly not correct about my arguments being invalid, which he is suggesting by making use of the fallacy he has. This is the kind of person you're dealing with.

    As to you what you point out, you're correct. 'I do not believe in god' would tend to validate the believer's claim. However, in order to be totally honest, any Atheist would have to do this for a certain variety of god concepts (deist, pantheist). That is, the Atheist would have to be agnostic.

    However, contingent upon denying belief in a god ('I do not believe in god'), any Atheist must also believe that the god does not exist exactly due to the lack of evidence for the positive assertion, the assertion of faith. Whether or not knowledge could ever be had about the god in question, there is not good reason to believe (there is no evidence) until evidence affirming the existence comes about. I hope the implications of a world where people believed things without evidence are clear because I won't take the time to explain them if they are.

    It seems that there is a fundamental problem with your interlocutor's understanding of the word belief and what it is to believe and the word disbelief and what it is to disbelieve, as well as a problem understanding the word faith and where faith and belief cross over as concepts. He also has a fundamental problem understanding the nature of evidence, as we'll see.

    I pulled this handy explanation from a fellow poster at another forum which I suggested aelf visit. He hasn't taken me up on that suggestion that I know, which clearly shows just how willing aelf is to expand upon his knowledge or at least to read some stuff and, perhaps, affirm how correct he is.

    Based on this we could call the Atheist disbelief a belief, but the disbelief is not a belief in itself, that would defy logic. The disbelief is rather based on some substantial evidence, the very lack of evidence that supports all god claims and it is in that way that disbelief is often regarded as belief. No one will argue (hopefully) that our mutual disbelief in any other thing which does not exist (santa clause) is a belief because the apparent nonexistence is itself a form of evidence. Why is it necessary to pursue the idea that disbelief in god is somehow a belief unlike all other disbeliefs? It would not prove anything about the Atheist's position, nor would it detract from it. This pursuit is based on something else entirely, I think it's based on the believer's vehemence for his belief and the fact that he cannot imagine or fails to grasp what it is to disbelieve in something; for there to be no belief in place of a belief he thinks is vital. That said, Atheists, like absolutely everyone, believe in all sorts of things and I don't see how this presents itself as a problem.
     
  20. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Both, actually. Strong atheism makes the stronger claim, weak atheism makes the weaker claim.

    It's obvious to me that one of the statements makes a logically stronger (more constrained) claim than the other. It's so obvious to me that I'm gonna have to think a bit about how to present this to someone who doesn't comprehend it.

    Get out of what? You make it sound like I'm some sort of craazy claim.

    "I do not believe that God exists" --> If you made a list of all the things I believe, "I believe that God exists" would not be one of them. The statement makes no claim on the existence of "I believe that God does not exist" on this list of things that I do believe. It might be there, but it also might not.

    This is the weaker of the two statements, since it is not as constrained.

    Things you might find on my list: "I believe that I was born in Poland", "I believe that 2+2 is 4", and so on.

    "I believe that God does not exist" --> makes the claim that "I believe that God does not exist" is on the list of things that I believe... for sure. If I had to produce such a list, I would include "I believe that God does not exist".

    Now, you, as a believer, might have a hard time understanding the difference between the two. To you, you either believe that God exists, or you don't. I understand that..

    But the difference is essentially what differentiates Strong atheism vs weak atheism and to a lesser degree atheism vs agnosticism.

    Agnostics do not believe that God exists.. They make no positive claim that God exists, therefore they do not believe that God exists.

    However, an agnostic also does not believe the opposite.. Thus, to say that an agnostic "believes that God does not exist" would be incorrect.

    I jumped on this because in order to really understand my opinion on the question of God, you sort of have to understand this important distinction. So many people out there try to lump people into two camps.. "YOu either believe or you don't!".. but that's just not how it works, and if you do that, you will never understand my stance on the subject. Since the purpose of these forums is an exchange of ideas, and since God comes up fairly frequently in our discussions, you should make a point of understanding this distinction.. saving you the embarassment of fighting strawmen in the future (ie. making claims about my beliefs or lack thereof that are just incorrect)

    If you are unable to address my points without flaming, then perhaps you do not belong in this (heated??) debate.
     

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