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Venice - A Mod

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Unreleased Mods' started by VainApocalypse, Jun 5, 2017.

  1. VainApocalypse

    VainApocalypse Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
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    Version 2 Update (Check the first image for a tl;dr):

    This is a mod that will add Venice as a Civilization. I'm revealing it here to receive some feedback on my design. The mod is essentially finished. It mainly needs balancing now.

    I wanted to design a Venice that was competitive, fun, and historically flavorful. I wanted it to focus on trade and culture and to be tallish but have a real route to victory. Let me know how well you think this design meets these criteria. As of now, none of the numbers are finalized.

    Any tall Civ design has to confront the fact that Civ VI doesn't respect the Tall/Wide dichotomy. There are advantages to being big (Great Work Slots, Trade Routes, Science, Income, Culture, District caps, Build Queues) and none for being small. I try to address these here. Take a look.

    VeniceSummary.png
    Start.jpg

    Details


    My Venice CAN capture cities, but it can't build them. I more or less had to plan around this since there's no puppet mechanic, but it actually relieves some of the stress of being tall. If Venice REALLY needs an extra Great Work slot or Trade Route, they can take it. Due to brutal warmonger penalties, I still don't expect to see many people play a wide Venice

    This is a powerful combo, in my opinion. Not only will Venice enjoy all the amenities, yields and buffs from city-state vassals, but Venice will be able to field larger armies despite their limited build queue due to being able to deploy City-State units. It's historically flavorful. Representing the fourth crusade and centuries of reliance on mercenaries, my Venice will be exceedingly good at fighting with units that aren't their own.

    This replaces the catapult and would be the only naval siege unit in the game. The fact that Dandolo has no catapults will make it very hard for him to capture inland cities, but he'll excel at capturing cities near the coast. This represents the fact that Venice was twice able to successfully siege Constantinople by attacking the walls with galleys and amphibious landings.

    People might expect an economic policy slot, but I think a diplomatic one is more appropriate. The economic policies offer buffs to settler production and district adjacency. These don't benefit Venice as much; they have no settlers and will probably have fewer districts. What's more, the diplomatic policies capture a lot of Venice's historical flavor. The reason Venice was so successful in trade was BECAUSE they were diplomatically competent. The diplomatic policies also allude to Venice's storied history of espionage.

    People rightfully pointed out that Venice needs a way to increase their trade route capacity if they're going to be so reliant on their trade routes. However, there needs to be a relatively small cap on this. For example, if every district in any city increased the Trade Route capacity, Venice would build ~30 neighborhoods in every city and quickly surpass everyone in the game. So the buff is limited to the capital (Reflecting Venice's centralized focus) and on Specialty Districts (Encampment, Campus, Entertainment Complex, Aerodrome, Commercial Hub, Holy Site, Harbor, Industrial Zone and Theater District).

    Venice also receives a Gold discount on patronage. This helps make up for Venice's lack of Great Person Points and reflects a monetary focus for the Civ.

    The trade routes from the Muda offset Venice's Tallness the most with raw yield bonuses. It's the game's only unique unit that doesn't become obsolete, and to compensate for this, it will be more expensive. The LARGE tourism pressure bonus makes up for Venice's lack of Great Work slots and compels Venice to ensure that their trade routes span the globe.

    I think the consistently high housing is important for keeping on par with wider civs who have more population. The Marsh adjacency makes Venice a little dependent on terrain, but doesn't deprive Venice of a Unique if they have a bad start. Even one marsh tile can provide Venice with a lot of extra tourism.

    Gameplay
    Wide play isn't impossible for Venice, but will involve irreparable Warmonger penalties. Venice will lean toward having one or a few cities that may not be contiguous.

    Anything Venice wants will come from trade, so Venice will be obsessive about its trade routes, always looking for ways to increase capacity and protect existing ones. In my playthroughs, losing a trade route hurts like losing a city, so you're very cautious about where you send your Muda and how closely you escort them. This also means that the easiest way to disrupt Venice is to blockade her.

    Venice easily picks up City-State vassals using both the influence buff and the additional diplomatic policy slot, and they're the first place you look for units when war is looming.

    Winning a cultural victory (Needs additional playtesting) is less about hoarding Great Works (though that is important) and more about occupying marshland and making sure your trade reaches every Civ.

    With the War Galley and Sestiere, you'll spend the mid-game looking for marshy coastal cities you can steal.These will not only net you extra tourism but extend your trade (and tourism) range.

    Venice is about trade, diplomatic influence, culture, and carefully targeted military adventures.

    FAQ


    Sometime around the first or second week of July if there are no unforeseen hurdles.

    Depending on how well a City-State keeps up (it does vary), it may not be as useful late game. It will still be useful early and mid game before City-States fall behind.

    I'm aware and am looking for a solution to this.

    I don't want to make the Most Serene ability too dependent on City-States. The influence buff comes from the leader, and there's a real possibility I may eventually add a second leader who doesn't have an influence buff.

    I don't see the need for this. Trade Posts add range, and I do want some incentive for Venice to sometimes snag another city or two. Remember, Venice was as imperial as it was a republic.

    The Doge's Palace has a unique problem. It's hard to replace the Palace with a unique. Even if it's replaced, the game is hard-coded to place a Palace in your first city.

    I liked these at first, but the problem with them is that there's only one of them. They're more like Unique National Wonders (if you remember National Wonders from V). Unique districts and buildings are usually things that were ubiquitous with the Civilization, something they built again and again. The Sestieri Venetians are so proud of comes to mind. There were six in Venice and they were copied for some of their colonies.

    Furthermore, maybe this will serve as an educational opportunity. Everyone knows about the Grand Canal and Rialto, but who can name the Sestieri of Venice?

    I would love to, but I don't have the skill If you have appropriate art laying around or could whip some up for me, I'll include it and give you credit wherever I post the mod.


    Here's what I want to know now. Does it seem balanced? Would you try difference numbers or abilities? Does it seem fun? Does it seem too "busy" or "loaded"? Let me know what you guys think :goodjob:

    -----------------------------------------------------------
    EDIT 6 (07/16/17)

    Venice 1.0 RELEASED on the Steam Workshop.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  2. DrCron

    DrCron Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Interesting, I love the idea but you need to buff it A LOT to make a 1 city game viable (unless you assume players will just conquer like crazy, in which case you need to buff the military). I already tried OCC on Deity so I can provide some feedback on how to make it doable (right now it's completely impossible):

    - The main thing is that you need much more great people generation. With 1 district of each type you simply can't get a single great person on deity. Specialists should generate great people points. Or each great person point should be multiplied by 3 (2 might be enough to get 1-2 great people, but not enough to win). Or both.

    - More housing makes sense if trying to go tall, but without food it's still very hard to grow a city beyond pop 13. Since many tiles will be occupied by districts, and you are not guaranteed to spawn near many food resources, the "Sestiere" should give food. The +4 food from trade routes is a good start, but with one city you only have 2 trade routes so it really isn't that much. Or maybe each sestiere can give an additional trade route? That could make that strong trade route bonus a real game-changer (right now it's only +8 of everything, which by mid-game is not much, and by late-game is almost nothing).

    - If you want wonders (eg: Cristo Redentor + Eiffel Tower for cultural victories, Oxford for scientific ones) you need tiles, and you only have one city (that needs food, production and districts). So you need a faster cultural growth to get tiles beyond the 3-tile workable standard, which you can use to build wonders. Also, no wonder terrain restrictions for Venice.

    - You can't defend from Deity AIs with just one city, so you need some form of diplomatic boost. You won't get warmongering penalties if you go for OCC, so it doesn't need to be huge, but you need a relevant number because you are bound to not comply with several agendas.


    And that's it for now, for OCC. Now, if you don't want to make OCC viable but you want this CIV to be usable, it means people will want to conquer around 7 cities to have a realistic chance at winning the game on high difficulties. In that case:

    - Make sure that unique unit is cheap and durable, so players can actually use it (catapults are not worth the price right now). Make sure it's not too easy to kill by galleys, because coastal AI spam galleys like crazy on Deity.

    And I think that's it. If you conquer 3 cities in the early game you can just continue playing like you would with any other civ at that point, just more aggressive. That being said, I don't think this is really the goal of having Venice in the game. I think the most fun version of this is making a civ that makes OCC viable on CIV 6. I would really enjoy that.
     
    Locke_Daemonfire likes this.
  3. VainApocalypse

    VainApocalypse Chieftain

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    These are great points! I agree with everything you've said.

    Even though I knew there would be challenges faced by a tall Civ, I'm evidently still underestimating them, and I'm trying to balance the need for a strong Venice against the need of having a Civ that doesn't look like it has too many buffs or ones that are OP.

    • I'm going to give the Sestiere a +1 or +2 trade route buff; I was already leaning in this direction.
    • I'm going to look for a diplomatic boost.
    • I'm going to look for a place to squeeze in Great Person points.
    • I think the War Galley will work. Its stats are much higher than contemporary naval units, but I'll keep a close eye on it.
    I haven't had a chance to play test it, so I'll update this thread as I figure out what buffs work through trial and error.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  4. VainApocalypse

    VainApocalypse Chieftain

    Joined:
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    The design has been updated. Check the first image for the tl;dr.

    Changelog:
    I've moved the UU onto the Leader so that I could move the trade route bonuses to a second UU. In place of that, the UA now aids with increasing Trade Route capacity and Great Person patronage. Finally, the unique district is no longer as terrain dependent and offers a raw tourism yield with marsh adjacency.

    So we have less terrain dependency, more trade routes, more great people.
     
  5. The Capo

    The Capo godless Heathen

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    I think since Civ VI kinda rewards wide play some exceptions should be made for the concept of keeping Venice to one city. Personally I don't think it is a big deal if tgey are allowed to capture Settlers. I think it is infrequent enough to allow for it. It isn't as if The Venetian Republic was actually one city in size. While I am all for removing the Settler from its building options, I don't think it necessary to prevent them from capturing Settlers.

    I also think there should be a way to allow them to build both stables and barracks, both art museums and archeoligical museums and so on since they will be limited in cities. Im not sure how possible this is. Maybe somehow incorporate this into their specialty district?
     
  6. VainApocalypse

    VainApocalypse Chieftain

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    Thanks for the attention!

    Regarding the capturing of Settlers, I thought the exact same thing until someone on Reddit pointed out that a popular strategy on higher difficulties is to farm settlers. You do this by beating a Civ down to a single city and then capturing every settler they produce, executed well, you can play wide and win without ever building more than your first settler. This is very gamey, and I'd like to avoid it. Thankfully, I have a satisfactory solution.

    Regarding the mutually exclusive buildings, the easiest solution would be to give Venice unique replacements for each of these, but this is messy, and I don't think altogether necessary. As you point out, Venice shouldn't necessarily be confined to a single city; they'll be at liberty to take as many as they want, with coastal cities being especially easy to capture thanks to the War Galley.
     
  7. marshallleite

    marshallleite Chieftain

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    Feb 4, 2016
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    Am very excited to try this mod. I only play occ, and its been impossible above king on civ 6. Plus I start a 30 day vacation in a few hours and will spent most of that time trying your mod, as Venice was always my favorite in civ 5.


    Just warn you from experience on occ, a few points.


    * My biggest issue is not having land to build wonders. Even with only building a few that are critical, it takes up critical land.


    * Science is another biggie. Just one city means just one science district, and there lays the problem. Building the two science wonders is a must, but still usually you lag behind with around 50 science per turn. You can get to 100 but you need specific city states to appear on the map.


    * The trades you prose are good, but still limited great works slots is hard. Some suggested to build both the cultural museums, that would help a ton, especially with England.


    * Water tiles are horrible, and Venice is a coastal city. 50% of what's already hard will make it harder ahahha




    SUPER looking forward to trying this. From the screenshots looks great.


    Thanks
     
  8. DangerToast

    DangerToast Chieftain

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    I made an account just to comment on this, I want to thank you for your work man Venice was my favorite thing in Civ 5 and I've been waiting for a good Venice thing to work out, I have no idea if this version will work as i'm not super good at Civ or knowledgeable on it, but I mean I want to play Venice so im super okay with crippling myself from the start. I can bet there are tons of people who look at this but don't message, but want you to know we are all eagerly awaiting the release

    Love you
     
  9. marshallleite

    marshallleite Chieftain

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    Can we get this on civfanatics?
     
  10. VainApocalypse

    VainApocalypse Chieftain

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    Sure. I'll post it on CivFanatics after the next patch. It's having some balance issues at the moment and is getting a new feature.

    EDIT:
    I'm not sure how to go about this, as the compressed file is too large to upload here. The best that I can do for you is to provide a link to a third-party file host:

    https://ufile.io/ol2a6
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  11. marshallleite

    marshallleite Chieftain

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    Thanks, downloading now.
     
  12. marshallleite

    marshallleite Chieftain

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    Hi,

    Can we get your new version posted for R&F? Your civ mod is my fav to play. Great work.

    Thanks
     

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