Venice Immortal on Milae's Difficulty Mod

[Floats your boat]

So, I have never actually played Venice, heard many things about it, notably that it's:
a) awful to play,
b) worse than a blank civ, one with no abilities but no drawbacks either, would be,
c) it's amazing warmonger (this was proven by Milae in his YouTube series),
d) amazing tall peaceful civ because of some of its early game strengths,
and after being in just one game with them I'm inclined to agree with all those points .

I wasn't thinking of photojournal when I started playing it, but I usually took some screenshots in my game to compare with among them yields/policies/wonder finishing turns. I do have a lot of autosaves so I will get some more screenshots from early game. I'll try to be more careful and take screenshots of my capital yields at more useful points next time.

I am playing it right now and I observed some really interesting things that I would like to share and discuss. I will keep them in next post I guess, I need to think about them.

First of all, Venice is brutally awful in early mid-game when it's production and gold are scare, but it's really, really potent in early game up to medieval.
At the same time I have a feeling that I get early religion and similar number of wonders in most of my tradition games anyway.

Immortal to even stand a chance at this. On Alternative Difficulty Mod, it's more tough than normal diety and I am pretty sure Venice peaceful win on Milae's deity is just not possible, at least not if there are any tradition/progress - artistry civs in the game.

I actually would say OCC, one city challenge, would be preferable with it, especially for this start. Just take a look:

Spoiler :

This is what I call a great start. I started on the coastal marsh, but ofc moved as I would have much stronger starting plots, more resources to work on, while not trading any food, and gaining production. I prefer lakes to rivers massively. Ivory, a perfect early resources, very powerful early with considerably weak corporation and very strong monopoly for me. And a coastal city that can send trade routes and have navy without AI being able to retaliate. AI does this too and I do this a lot.



I opened with wheel and Stonehenge, I got very few ruins, bought a worker from gold in them. I placed second city in a very defensible and very, very rich location. Starts align perfectly. So far aren't they? I had only one city generating real yields so I thought Mausoleum would be great and went for it, instead of trapping. I went for God of the Expanse as I thought Beauty would not give me religion but I was really uneasy about that. I managed to found first with just two cities after all. Venice's border very growing every six turns. Oh and I got mining from ruins. Well was very good and mining also allowed me to build a single mine in my capital which I didn't used a single turn. As of now, close to turn 200, I don't even have a forge in my capital, probably never will. I couldn't explore much more so after construction I went for sailing as I knew of some ruins that were unclaimed. It was a major risk, it delayed me ten turns I could invest into getting my second city and writing faster. But it payed off beautifully. I got 15 culture AND my warriors learned some combat experience. I was moved. Next ruin was 135 faith though. I don't know if that made a difference on religion, I would say no, I was waiting quite long to know who is the last founder to know where to send my missionaries.



Production to Cattaro, food still not going to Venice as I couldn't get granary in time. Nice quests from Monaco gave me alliance but you see those other city states without any quests? it will not change for next 100 turns. Monaco on the other hand will give me a lot of them, usually great person ones. Gardens and Library were still available, I opted for Gardens as far stronger on this start. I was forced to work those lakes at this point, two or three of them just to maintain my pop. Disgusting. Then I went for masonry to get arenas production and Parthenon. Then Sankore ofc.



As you can see mid-game lack of production and gold (which is basically production to your puppets) kicks in hard.



Cattaro is unconquerable. And basically it's the only city to which AI can get to in the first place. Corfu is weak in resources but I needed to settle it and did that before Coron (hurts!) to not allow Korea to ever war me effectively.



In total I am doing fine, I am on par in tech and policies with leaders and I unlocked archeology (went straight for it without even gunpowder) wayyyy earlier than anyone and I am also the only one to go with artistry. Maybe Korea did, but they are irrelevant at this point. I finally had time to get some trade routes ( there was no gold/production to spare before). No one has dynamite so I am aiming for Eiffel



I managed to secure City State Sanctions when Germany was a host. Imagine achieving this with Austria (sad Prussian noises). Though I imagine they repeal it next session.



From the same turn as two images above.

I am the only one going industry, that's nice.

I made some major mistakes:
I lost Sistine by one turn, opting to build some normal building for a change (bank IIRC?) and not going for Sistine, then reversing my mind. I mean I only lost two turns of production, next turn I would have get it with investment and engineer but I already have trouble filling all the theming bonuses I can get.
I went for Printing Press to get congress host and, then when i got it, i realized Globe sucks as Venice and there is absolutely no point of getting it. I overestimated how many votes can I have as puppets from CS are better anyway, and lost host next vote anyway. If I went for Astronomy, not printing press first, I would have got Chichen Itza and have much stronger position overall. It will be ~35 next turns without GA which I could have shorten considerably.

I plan on getting Gorgio Armeier, it fits Venice perfectly and I have no way of obtaining Civilized Jewelers (short of conquering Spain) there's 14 Jade (standard everything) on the map, throughout city-states!

Any questions/input? What would you do differently/similarly? You think OCC would be better?

I will put city breakdown of my yields next time. I will talk about this more, but I will say now that I heavily considered going Celestial Throne (+20% capital yields during GA, if not now when I have only one city then when?) but I opted against it and I think that was right. What are you think about ideology? What would you played differently/ similar? TBH I am a little amazed I can be this strong as tall Venice, i don't feel it drawbacks heavily (yet). It makes me want to try OCC next time. Ciao!

 

[looorg]

Weird poll. So it's either YES or YES. But it's not really awkward it's just somewhat different. One could see it as being micromanagement deluxe since it's so different handling the other cities compared to what is normal. But it's very useful as a teaching or learning experience trying to manage a small empire since it's just less of it.

OCC is a very special and weird experience. If you found Venice just awkward OCC is just the same but worse. After all in OCC you can't even keep the enemy cities you conquer, they get instantly razed as you take them.

If you are running out of gold as Venice you are doing something wrong.

If you are not used to the game as normal adding Milaes alt difficulty mod is not for you. It gives the AI an absolute cr*pton of units and you are always going to be weaker and have less troops then them so you are always going to be considered as a possibly target/victim/lunch or whatever.

There are both advantages and disadvantages to being costal. If you are not coastal you never have to worry about an entire aspect of the game. AI have their doom-fleets that just means f*ckall to you really. You will do fine without being costal. Certainly so as most buildings and wonders count lakes as being costal so they can still be built. So in that regard I much rather be next to a lake then the ocean.

You are probably better of going Pyramids instead of Stonehenge and get an extra free great merchant of venice (you get that instead of a settler, anything that gives a settler gives a Great Merchant instead).

If you do ruins you want to send out as many scouts as possible, you want them to embark as soon as possible to crap all those island hunts. All depending on how your world is setup.

 

[stii]

Oh look I'm one of those a/b/c/d options

Venice is a very different game and it is a good thing to have that as an option for people. The longer the games goes on the more of an issue only having one city becomes but you can mitigate it by snowballing early

 

[azum4roll]

What's the mapscript? It's weird seeing marsh on plains.

 

[Floats your boat]

Responses to you guys

Spoiler :

One could see it as being micromanagement deluxe since it's so different handling the other cities compared to what is normal.

I see as complete inversion of efficient micromanagement. You don't have to count food and production effectively with sending out settlers in the early game, you don't have to carefully place and chose tiles and buildings for you satellites cities, they will work crap beyond your control anyway, sometimes even unimproved, and many other things. You can throw money at them, but that's not good micro compared to normal city management. You don't have to manage capital effectively compared to normal tradition game because you don't have enough citizens anyway. You can even throw 12 trade routes with food and production at your capital mid-game and doesn't care what tiles you work. NOT a lot of micromanagement if you ask me.

OCC is a very special and weird experience. If you found Venice just awkward OCC is just the same but worse. After all in OCC you can't even keep the enemy cities you conquer, they get instantly razed as you take them.

I think OCC with normal faction is much better, if harder. You don't have to spread your gold/units over as big territory. I tried unfinished OCC with Poland and Arabia and they felt strong. That was before Milae's mod though.
OCC is completely different than playing Venice in both aims and priorities throughout the game. It was going to be a peaceful game so I didn't even considered taking cities offensively.

If you are running out of gold as Venice you are doing something wrong.

Maybe, but I'm winning anyway.

You are probably better of going Pyramids instead of Stonehenge and get an extra free great merchant of venice (you get that instead of a settler, anything that gives a settler gives a Great Merchant instead).

No, no, no, no. Pyramids is at very weak tech and your puppet city is gonna be crap anyway. GA are nice though and I was bulbing a great person every 4-5 turns late game. Without Stonehenge religion is out of the picture and that's much stronger. Usually it's default for tradition and wheel is on very good position.

If you are not used to the game as normal adding Milaes alt difficulty mod is not for you. It gives the AI an absolute cr*pton of units and you are always going to be weaker and have less troops then them so you are always going to be considered as a possibly target/victim/lunch or whatever.

Not true, lots of units doesn't equal they can achieve anything with it. I was only attacked once this game, I feel much stronger at any stage of the game on Milae's mod. Which doesn't mean it is easier than vanilla.

Venice is a very different game and it is a good thing to have that as an option for people. The longer the games goes on the more of an issue only having one city becomes but you can mitigate it by snowballing early

I don't think it's a good or unique design. I would much better prefer Venice as normal civ with all civs granted an opportunity to settle a city as a puppet on settle (if that's possible code-wise). Now statecraft and diplo seems detrimental to Venice, while it should be trading and naval empire.

What's the mapscript? It's weird seeing marsh on plains.

Milae's mapscript v11 with heavily reduced mountain occurrence (for the authority AIs to have more power).

 

[Floats your boat]

Alright, I finished the game yesterday after matches were over but was too lazy to post it and write all this stuff. TLDR: I only used one great musician on china, probably unnecessary. Tourism is heavily overtuned, while science seems a slog to achieve.
Digging a lot of artifacts is kind of useless I had nothing to do with them.
Immortal seemed easy and AIs far too peaceful (even if they were behind in both points and military techs). I had only war true war with Spain my whole game.
China was locked at war with France for eternity. Germany took Stockholm after getting Panzers.
IDEOLOGY: I went order at the time only China got freedom, and I thought it's the best one. Mainly +a lot % tourism to follow orders civs which I knew will be a lot this game, and most importantly more tourism to civs with less happiness and I was the only one at 100% by a long shot. Other than that: +40% to wonders (policy for buildings counts too), scientist, engineers, more science to rush wonders that give free culture (I didn't get Motherland Calls), and most importantly peace and defense pacts with all the world that I needed to keep trade routs going.

Spoiler :

Some very sweet spots still unoccupied by the AIs.



I went straight dynamite, then radio, then plastics, then to tech with Sydney Opera House because I was policy blocked from winning (I also was buying a lot of military at this stage so I wanted military techs and wanted land ships). Russia became influential with anyone but China but was behind in policies to me.



This is very weak with Venice. I couldn't get +33% and had it been proposed one session later I wouldn't been able to get even free social policies, because it would be over in two turns, not three and I got only Venice to pump 90% production in it.



Now you can see what puppets give. 500 culture and 200 science roughly at no cost. Gold net is zero because you need more army to defend them and pay a lot of maintenance of buildings. But this culture seems quite a lot too be honest, I am shocked. They main value beside culture is as a point to get trade routes to more distant players with lots of culture but I think I would still be the first to influential and policies because passive values are so strong.






Glad I'm not participating in this .







That was kinds stupid from Russia, really.