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Venice!

Discussion in 'Strategy Section' started by crdvis16, Mar 13, 2019 at 4:55 PM.

  1. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Chieftain

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    I've decided to pursue a Venice game next so let's talk strategy!

    Serenissima
    Cannot found/annex cities. Trade Route cap doubled and all Trade Route target restrictions are removed. Receives a free Merchant of Venice after researching Trade. Puppet cities have -30% to their Yield penalties, and you can spend Gold in them. +20% Great Merchant Rate per owned Puppet City (I believe this last part is getting removed in the next patch?).

    Merchant of Venice, replaces Great Merchant.
    Can purchase City-States outright, bringing them under Venetian control as a Puppet. Is still able to Conduct a Trade Mission like the Great Merchant which it replaces. Can also construct an improved Town known as a Colonia.

    Colonia:

    +4 Food, +4 Gold, and +3 Culture. Acquires all tiles adjacent to itself when constructed, and can be constructed on unowned tiles adjacent to owned territory. The Colonia will gain additional Gold and Production if built on a Road or Railroad that connects two owned Cities. Grants additional Gold and Production (+1 pre-Industrial Era and +2 during or after the Industrial Era) if a Trade Route, either internal or external, passes over the Colonia's tile. +2 Gold at Guilds, +2 Culture at Economics, and +2 Food at Fertilizer.

    Piazza San Marco, replaces National Monument.
    1 Culture, 2 Food, 2 Gold, 1 Science, and 2 Production. +33% Great People rate in city. Enemy spies cannot perform Advanced Spy Actions in this city. Only buildable in the Capital. Unlocks access to the Murano Glassworks, Arsenale di Venezia, and Rialto District buildings once Guilds is researched, although only one of those can be built.

    Choose one:

    Murano Glassworks:

    Great Person Improvements and villages worked by all cities gain 2 Food and 2 Tourism. Contains 2 Great Work of Art or Artifact slots. +5 Science if themed. 1 Artist Specialist slot.

    Rialto District:

    Cost of Gold purchases in all cities reduced by 10% (15% in your Capital). Provides 1 World Congress Delegate for every 100 Gold per turn produced (caps at 25% of all City-States ever alive. Incoming Trade Routes generate +3 Gold for this city and +3 Gold for the Trade Route owner. 1 Merchant specialist slot.

    Arsenale di Venezia:

    +15% Production and +6 Defense in this City. Naval units constructed in any City receive the Venetian Craftsmanship promotion, boosting Combat Strength by 10% and Movement by 1. Increases the Military Unit Supply Cap from Population in this City by 25%. 1 Engineer specialist slot.

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    The UA seems to pretty clearly guide Venice toward 3 paths: tourism, diplomacy, and domination.

    Tourism/Culture Path:

    First, the trade route cap doubling and trade route target restrictions being removed heavily benefits tourism- you have twice as many trade routes to bomb a culture runaway with to get your tourism over the top. You can also go crazy with food/production trade routes to your capital which would let you more easily feed a capital full of specialists or knock out wonders quicker.

    One draw back for this path is that you don't have 2 other settled cities in which to place guilds, however I imagine it might be possible to get your best puppets to build guilds by investing in them to bump them in priority? I will have to test this in-game.

    Murano Glassworks is the obvious tourism option which adds some extra tourism/food to great person tiles. Combined with all those trade routes, I imagine getting influential with all other civs should be fairly easy. Venice might be more limited in completing a tourism victory by the 10 ideology policy requirement so scrapping for culture/policies whenever possible would be important I would think.

    Diplomacy Path:

    Extra trade routes would mean you probably always have enough to send to every CS once you get the influence/turn for trade routes policy in statecraft. Taking a CS on the other side of the world might also give you an easy way to establish trade routes to CSs you would otherwise not be close enough to. However, every CS puppet is one less available for you to ally which seems counter productive. Perhaps Venice would more quickly rely on the Colonia over puppeting CSs if this path is chosen.

    Rialto District essentially gives 4 votes in a standard 16 CS game as I imagine having 400 GPT by the time the world congress is founded is fairly doable with Venice while the gold purchasing cost reduction would help Venice more easily buy diplomats throughout the game to make up for not having multiple cities from which to produce them with hammers.

    Domination Path:

    The yield penalty reduction of Serenissima is pretty substantial. If you're able to gain many puppet cities through warfare I could see the reduced penalty yields becoming massive, especially if it's later combined with Imperialism's further reduction. The amount of gold Venice usually finds itself having from all of the trade routes should make maintaining a military quite easy though I imagine Venice could have issues with the unit cap.

    Arsenale di Venezia seems like a pretty strong building. +15% production would certainly help with producing military and the bonuses to movement/CS for naval units could be very useful. However, I'm not sure there is enough here to make warmongers as Venice plausible enough? Most other warmongers have game-changing UUs/UAs to not only reward warmongering but also make it easier to accomplish. Venice's path to warmongering seems highly rewarding but also more difficult that normal to accomplish compared to most other civs.

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    For my game I am going to plan on the tourism path. I think it has the fewest drawbacks when considering Venice's kit. I don't like the anti-synergy of a diplomacy Venice eating up the very CSs it would otherwise ally and I think that if you are able to warmonger with Venice's limited military advantages then warmongering is just too easy (even though the rewards for said warmongering with Venice are pretty huge).

    Also, my last two games were a progress/diplomacy game as Carthage and authority/warmonger game as the Ottomans so it's time for something different!

    With that in mind, Tradition->Artistry->Rationalism is probably the best bet. I could actually see dipping into Imperialism just for Martial Law (further reduction to puppet yield malus) and maybe Exploitation (science/production on ocean tiles) even without doing any conquering at all.

    Freedom might be the optimal ideology due to Economic Freedom giving +2 trade routes (+4 for Venice!) and Media Culture's tourism and +20% culture. I could also see Order due to Communism's 33% building cost reduction and production toward wonders and the potentially high tourism output of Cultural Revolution (+34% tourism to other Order civs) and Dictatorship of the Proletariat (+75% tourism to civs with less happiness). I probably wouldn't consider Autocracy for this play through.

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    For the early game it seems that Trade is easily the priority- you get 2 instead of 1 trade route along with a free Merchant of Venice. If you happen to have desert nearby then Petra would be an obvious wonder to reach for as well.

    Colossus would be the next most obvious wonder to grab as it is also counts as 2 rather than 1 trade route. However, that pulls you away from the top of the tech tree where you could otherwise gun for things like Hanging Garden, Oracle, and Parthenon as well as unlocking your UB part 1 with Drama and Poetry followed by part 2 at Guilds.

    Once you get to the Medieval era I would think a Venice tourism game would play out largely the same as other Tradition->Tourism type games where you attempt to grab the strongest culture/tourism wonders and survive. I will be sure to pay attention as early as possible to who the culture runaways might be in order to begin targeting them with trade routes boosted via Caravansary and Custom houses for the tourism bombs on completion.
     
  2. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Every changes with each version indirectly kills the Venice.

    It seems as if warmonger Venice strategy is getting gimped along with tall Venice.
     
  3. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    Venice is still very strong though.
    I would use my 1st merchant to get gold to invest in my infrastructure and units, since CS normally quite far away for a tall venice to defend, so I will take a few close by cities of my neighbour.
    I use a lot of internal TRs as Venice because I have many and there are not enough safe international TRs, also using those could give me a huge advantage.
    Guilds in puppets dont generate Great Person so building guilds in them is useless.
    Getting a religion with venice is the hardest part. But I think Venice is fine even without a religion.
     
    vyyt and TranceBlossom like this.
  4. TranceBlossom

    TranceBlossom Chieftain

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    Why worry about founding a religion when you can just take one over :)
     
  5. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    And tech wise I would priotise military bottom tech, probably beeline to Mathematics so I can have horsemen, siege weapons, and skirmishers to fight my neighbour, hopefully they settle toward me by then. Also Hanging Garden is such a good wonder. I will get trade after that but I dont value Petra too much with venice and Colossus is safer to grab.
     
  6. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Chieftain

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    I did an initial 120 turns or so last night to try to get a feeling for Venice. I definitely see how trade routes are tough to protect when you have so many of them. I'm not even in a war but even just barbarians are a headache.

    I saw that my CS puppets did build guilds but if they can't actually produce GPs then that's a bummer.

    Even if it's probably not optimal for Venice I'm going to try to stay peaceful this game. My previous game was non stop war so I need a change of pace. But I definitely agree that Venice can hugely benefit from warfare. At the same time, Venice has some big obstacles to being a warmonger:

    -He only has 1 city to build units in. He can rush buy units but then they start with half +exp
    -He tends to have a low unit cap
    -No UU or bonuses to actually fighting (other than the movement/CS bonus to navies if you pick that UB)
     
  7. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    Thats why you have to do it early, rush unwalled cities with your very limited army and defend from there. The later the harder to take cities with Venice, especially if you decide to play peaceful. Just buying CSs can put you in a very difficult to defend spot and war sometimes is unavoidable.
     
  8. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Chieftain

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    That makes sense- the window to conquer is probably short before the ai can get his unit cap too much higher than yours.

    And the Venice ai seems to have a hard time defending spread out CS puppets so I could see choosing which ones to puppet being a very strategic choice. In fact, the Venice ai seems to just have a hard time period. He's almost always the first to go in my games haha.
     
  9. doublex55

    doublex55 Chieftain

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    Best part of really advanced setup is turning off Venice for the AI.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  10. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Chieftain

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    There are times that I like to see Venice in my games. If I'm not planning to go for a diplo victory and I'm in a position to befriend and protect him then he can be useful in removing CSs from the map to hurt the Siam/Austria/Germany type civs, similar to the Mongols.
     
  11. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Chieftain

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    A couple more thoughts on Venice after playing them a bit:

    -Pyramids gives you a merchant of Venice so if you're lucky enough to be near a bunch of good CS puppet candidates, grabbing pyramids can help speed that up.

    -Also assuming you are near good CS puppet candidates, I really think rushing trading ASAP for the free MoV is the best play. Even early on the CS will give you 2 or 3 warriors and a worker typically (along with a few yields/turn, of course). That's a pretty huge return on investment for just beelining a tech.

    -Unit cap is a real problem. In my current game I've puppeted 4 CS (was lucky that they are nearby and fairly defendable) but my unit cap is still hanging out at just 13 or so. Puppets just don't give much unit cap. If you have a very aggressive neighbor then this can be a real problem and I think it's why the AI tends to get eaten as Venice.

    -I tend to be really poor as Venice, which is really surprising. Even with their double trade routes AND grabbing Colossus my GPT isn't that great relative to other civs in the game. I think maybe this has to do with puppet building maintenance dragging your GPT down? I haven't really used Venice's ability to purchase things in puppets because I'm typically too poor after upgrading my units and investing in the capital.

    The unit cap and gold issues make Venice really challenging to play!
     
  12. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Chieftain

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    More observations:

    -Venice never gets WLTKD? At least in my game (at turn 215) I haven't seen a "Venice desires XXX luxury". On the city status display on the left every puppet I have has a desired lux except Venice. Weird?
    -I haven't explicitly tested it but I'm not sure Venice's UA perk of ignoring trade destination restrictions works, at least when it comes to sending internal routes to Venice. It seemed like I could only send a single food route from a given puppet to Venice. I thought maybe the UA meant that I should be able to send like 8 food routes from a single puppet to Venice if I so desired?
     
  13. swapoer

    swapoer Chieftain

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    I have 3 recent games of Venice, on emperor difficulty and continents map.

    I have no trouble of gold in all three games and no WLTK problem for my capital. Game version is February.


    In the first game, my location is the north pole of the biggest continent of the map. South of me is Russia and north of me are two city states located in snow and tundra. This game went smoothly, since Russia was busy warring with 2 other nations in the same continent. I believe the 35 relation bonus of trade partner from my trade route help deterring Russia from DoW me. I went tradition, artistry, rationalism and order. I got culture victory several turn after AI sanctioned me.

    From this game, I think trade route is the strength and weakness of Venice. In modern era, Rome from another continent declared war on me and my trade routes were reduced to 3. Since you can only buy one unit per turn, it took me a lot of money and turns to recover from the loss. I bought just the 2 cities states in the north to increase my unit cap. The biggest advantage of this game is the geography location. I was neighbors to only Russian. It is hard for other AI to come and fight me. Since Russia was busy fighting other AIs, I could run away. After several tries, I give up getting reformation for my religion in this game. It was just impossible since my only neighbor had his own religion.



    The second game end quickly. I was at the same continent with Dido only. Dido expanded aggressively and come to my capital at ancient era.


    In the third game, I am in a big continent again, with 4 other AIs. I am neighbors to 2 AIs, but the trade partner bonus deters them from fighting me in early game. One thing I did in this game is to buy a lot of CS. After buying several CS, AI’s cities started revolting to create new CS. And one new CS is just adjacent to me, so I bought that one too. I had a lot of money, so I bought defense and military buildings in my puppets. Things went well until late game. My tourism started infuriating AIs and my digging artifacts from their land didn’t help too. AIs fight me and my trade routes got plundered and my digging stopped. My CS which were surrounded by AI’s cities got liberated. I can only defend my capital and the 2 CS near my capital. But things went down after I am 27 turns away from unlocking the second third level tenets. My closed neighbors and friend revolted from order into freedom and stabbed me in the back. Her soldiers flood my territory. At the time I quit, I was leading in tech and tourism. I was 8 techs away from future tech and I was about 10 techs ahead.

    I think my third game went down because there is a runaway AI who went for freedom and it make it very hard for me to change the ideology of other AIs. Without the +90 ideology bonus, AI tends to attack me a lot. And war is a bad thing for culture victory, especially Venice. I have 27 great works in my third game and 47 in my first game.

    One thing I learn from the third game is you can buy unit from puppet when playing Venice. It is quite useful when you have 2 puppets closed to each other and located inland. Seaside puppet is near impossible to defend, since there is not geography advantage to utilize. One of my North Pole seaside puppets survived since there were limited navy ships in that location. Bomber is really good when defending my puppets, but they required oil and oil is located in my puppet’s territory.

    One problem I encounter when playing Venice is that one of my puppet is building Marmaton Project so my capital can’t build it. Thanks god the puppet still manage to be the first to finish it though.
     
  14. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Chieftain

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    Another observation that somewhat surprised me:

    When you buy a CS it seems that many of its buildings are destroyed as if you conquered the CS through military. The new puppet usually immediately starts building walls which it presumably had prior to being purchased. My assumption going in was that the puppet should keep all its buildings (which I think is how the Mongol's UA works?). I might open a ticket on a few of these in case they aren't working as intended.
     
    Gothic_Empire likes this.

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