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Very disappointed whit the newest "balance" changes.

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by DarkZero, Oct 17, 2016.

  1. Workerspam

    Workerspam Chieftain

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    We've all had that game. The perfect starting spot, paired with a pantheon that supercharges your capital, you snag key Wonders and set up multiple cities that all synergize so perfectly that you realize early on, well, shoot. This game isn't going to be a challenge. You got off to such a good start that the rest of the world will never catch up.

    That was Korea in your game. It happens.
     
    Bromar1 and Arkenean like this.
  2. DarkZero

    DarkZero Chieftain

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    The funny part about this post is that this was the reason why I started playing this mod, to avoid these easy wins, on one post Gazbo brags about how few are the bonuses the ai are getting, while on the other he says how wen unchecked it outperforms any player, I guess after 200 turns and 12 real life hours invested in a game you just accept the fact that you wasted time on a game you never had a chance of wining despise playing the best game you could ever play, but guess after about 371 hours playing whit this patch I just need to l2p and go back to settler, nothing I said cold ever be true the patch is perfect everything is perfect and is not like things get buffed or nerfed every version.
     
  3. avl8

    avl8 Chieftain

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    I think OP is acting like a person who blame others for his own flaws and failings.

    If you lose a game, take it like a man. Get yourself some new info to learn, improve your own decision making and judgement.
    And win another game.

    Or you can go blame project, AIs, government, Google, Russians etcetc.
    Though that way you wont improve and you lose it again because YOU are not improved by your past mistakes.

    AI in Vox Populi is a damn hard opponents on Immortal. Thats why I love Vox Populi and probably wont play Civ 6. And yes, Ive failed beating immortal AIs quite alot during last months.
    But each time Ive learned new tricks from my mistakes. And beat them all again with my new knowledge and judgement.

    Seriously, OP have to learn from his own mistakes. Blaming others is the most useless thing he can do.
     
    Arkenean and notque like this.
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Bragging?

    Outperforming a player has nothing to do with bonuses, and everything to do with the fact that the AI is very good at yield management and yield efficiency.
     
    avl8 and notque like this.
  5. DarkZero

    DarkZero Chieftain

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    gasp! I am blaming mechanics that gazebo changes every other version! how dare I do such things? this mod is perfect, it cant improve, every change was perfect, it is not like some changes where ever reverted back, everything was always perfect.
    Criticism always devolves into l2p.

    And a player that played and loved you patch for 371 hours cant have a yield management and efficiency just as good as your artifical inteligence?
    Wen it comes to criticism you never address the main point and always just replie to the minor things, why are you on the defensive?
    If I did not care about this patch why would i have played whit for about 371 hours, why would I waste time in this forum trying to explain the situation to you, I am not attacking you or the project my complains are about some changes made recently and trying my best to make them clear, this is not an "mod is umbalanced, 0/10 uninstalled" post in any way.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
    Amask likes this.
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    What's the main point, again? Sorry, but it is hard to parse. I was under the impression that the main issue is that you lost a game at immortal because the AI won a tourism victory by gaining lots of tourism. The AI gets no innate bonuses to tourism, so the chance for you to win a tourism victory is as good as theirs.

    And yeah, computers are really good at numbers, and yield management is ultimately just number crunching.
     
    avl8 likes this.
  7. DarkZero

    DarkZero Chieftain

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    If you would have bothered to read my posts, my point is that the ai gained all their tourism from the recently overbuffed historical events, while having very few tourism per turn and clearly focusing on science,at least in the "mid game", I went aesthetics he went imperialism, witch he got only fours policies because re reached modern era and unlocked ideologies, its turn 276, standard speed, modern era for me and the world, information for 23 techs ahead of everyone korea, and we are influential and content whit the entire world, we only need one to convert one another for the tourism victory and I am actually ahead by 10 %, but I focused only on tourism while he just completed the Apollo program and has half the city states of the world.

    If korea was another civi guess this thread would be, is being able to win a tourism victory before turn 300 on standard speed balanced? Because the recent buff to historical events sure made that the fastest way to win the game.
     
  8. ashendashin

    ashendashin Chieftain

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    If you want a perfectly balanced game where luck doesn't play much of a factor, you're looking at the wrong place. Sometimes, a civ is just better due to a strong start. If said civ gets powerful enough, they're more likely to be ganged up on. But if it's too late for the AI dogpile on them, why would they kill themselves? You didn't attack them, so why would another? Chance is an important factor, and you seem to be unable to accept that.
    Have an issue with recent balance changes? State it clearly and don't go off on how much you hate how hard it was to beat a particular civ.
     
    Arkenean likes this.
  9. mikes61293

    mikes61293 Chieftain

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    Does the tourism from historic events get multiplied by the % modifier with each civ (i.e. open borders, shared religion, etc.)?
     
  10. DarkZero

    DarkZero Chieftain

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    I dont think so, in my game korea currently has 869 per turn, i have 471 per turn and indonesia has 99 per turn, and each great person who is born in my game grants me 1700 tourism whit every civ in the game.
    And korea is so going for a tourism victory that they proposed and passed the world resolution tha give -50% tourism globally, the passport ban.
    Gazebo point is that ai can do both science and tourism, while my point always was that they got so close to tourism victory by pure accident while wonder building and specialist woking due to historical event.
     
  11. Workerspam

    Workerspam Chieftain

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    DarkZero, reread your original post. You mention tourism from historical events once in the entire post, buried in the middle of a run-on sentence. Presentation matters.

    It may well be that tourism from historical events is overtuned. I've won two early-ish tourism victories (Shoshone and Netherlands, Emperor, standard speed and size, won in late Modern, maybe early Atomic) recently without aiming toward that goal initially (i.e. didn't go Aesthetics, no tourism religious beliefs, popping early Artists and Writers for GAs and culture). But I tend to be specialist happy and between Freedom ideology and Glory of God (think that's the reform belief that allows purchasing Great People) I start popping Great People every other turn by late Industrial. Soon I'm Influential with half the world and at that point I turn my strategy toward that Tourism victory with much of the ground work done as almost a byproduct.
     
  12. DarkZero

    DarkZero Chieftain

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    Perhaps I should have started whit the focus on that, but the post around it was why I reached that conclusion, I was not sure that was the problem at the time of the op post, but nothing else makes sense now , Korea is good but how it can dominate so hard, them I started looking at my own stats and I started to see how ahead I also was if it was not for korea i would have won the game basically uncontested before anyone cold even think about the apollo program or the united nations.
     
  13. zeta

    zeta Mod Addict

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    As I see it, Korea had a very good start. Terrain and area around were good. Also, a very peaceful game is a key to success for such civ as Korea. Their main focus is winning the science victory, since that's what they can do best. Korea was the best scientific civ in vanilla and they still are here. Peaceful game lets you focus on scientific technologies without worrying about military too much. Apparently in this case they had so much working space that they acquired massive amounts of science and focused on alliance with CSs. I see this as a very good move, since City-States will defend your empire while you can focus on the main thing.
     
  14. DarkZero

    DarkZero Chieftain

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    They get most of their science from specialists, specialists generate great people, and great people generates historical events, they are influential over everyone but me, being 23 techs ahead, on information while everyone is on modern is one thing, but at this hate even whit their massive tech lead they will win a tourism victory before a scientific one!
    My problem is not they winning in the science game, any good ai who is focusing science should do that, my problem is that they won the tourism game by accident while pursuing a scientific victory, no way an ai whose focus shifted to tourism would propose and pass the passport ban police on the world congress.
     
  15. Galbias

    Galbias Chieftain

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    This was how I initially felt after playing the mod back in March, and then starting to play it again a month or two ago. Shortly afterwards I realized the AI had just gotten better. That's a good thing from my point of view.

    To be fair, it is entirely possible to end up in an "unwinnable" game. Higher difficulties give the AI significant bonuses, and if an AI and a human player are playing on a relatively equal level, the AI will have a big advantage because of those bonuses. If one AI is doing too well, you may have some options to knock them down a peg, whether by conquest, spies, attempting to steal their city states, denouncing, WC proposals, etc, but sometimes the cards just aren't stacked in your favor.

    I haven't actually played in like a month (Persona 5 took me 120 hours to beat) but when I start playing again I'm probably going to turn the difficulty down and try to work up again from there.


    Actually, if anyone knows the current difficulty modifiers for VP, I wouldn't mind seeing those to see how they stack up to vanilla, I didn't see them on the wiki.
     
  16. tompliss

    tompliss Chieftain

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    I was wondering : isn't there a bonus to tourism from being ahead in science ?
    I mean, beyond the extra wonders you can easily catch, isn't there something ? I think in vanilla, the first to reach the Internet got a boost or something ? Also, isn't there something from "number of techs non-shared" ?
    Basically, the whole "they've got planes and skyscrapers and we've got horses and castles"...
     
  17. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Chieftain

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    The thing here to remember is: you can't make a blanket statement based solely on one game!
    I play VP a lot and I win very rarely, and that's only on King level. Yes this is more than an indictment on my playing style, but I keep playing to win because I know one game is not an accurate reflection of the game or my playing.
    Okay, this game smacked you around, now you know that it can do things like that, adjust your game accordingly. If you and the other AIs can't take him on alone you will need to band together or do wars of attrition and pillage him back to the pack or something to stop his progress.
     
  18. Arkenean

    Arkenean Chieftain

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    I believe the modifiers are lower overall than vanilla and are spread out throughout the eras. Most of the difficulty comes from AI improvements. I'll update this post if I can find them in the game files.
     
  19. DarkZero

    DarkZero Chieftain

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    It is not a blanket statement, after playing this mod for 391 or so hours this is the first time this happened and the first time something forced me to post on these forums, while the changes improved the ai greatly my knowledge of the mod was not changed, while it is now harder to kick its ass i can still do it, just not wen they abuse systems I had no idea where so powerful to begin whit that changed whit a patch less than 10 days ago.
     
  20. Magean

    Magean Chieftain

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    The OP is indeed getting salty, yet he has a valid point: Korea's neighbors on Sejong's continent, had they been humans, would have acted soon enough to prevent the snowballing from happening. So the AI isn't acting human if it doesn't strike preemptively at a peaceful builder getting ahead. I know this from my own games on King : I have mostly a peaceful builder experience, and most of the time the AI leaves me alone, excepted the usual suspects. As a consequence, I have no trouble snowballing ahead on this difficulty, and no bothers me. That means I should up the level, although I need more warfare experience before going to Emperor. That being said, no matter the difficulty, AIs should strike against a long-term builder.

    Another valid point is how Sejong got a culture victory while going science. In my own peaceful games, I typically completely neglect tourism, yet have one the largest cumulated tourism outputs (if not the largest) thanks to historical events. If Sejong goes full science, this should primarily lead him to a science victory, not a culture one. I remember the mod from the early Summer. Back then people complained about science victory behind too long and dull, to the point that a culture victory was more easily at hands. This has been changed with the successive decrease to late game techs and other tweaks. However, the recent buff of historical events made it so that a peaceful builder with (likely) a very strong culture output and great people generation can get very close to a culture victory and deviate from their science path.
     

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