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(very) late domination "guide" [Commerce-BigBen-Autocracy] deity pangea

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by peddroelm, Sep 10, 2013.

  1. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    Polynesia video example in the video lets play section of the forum
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=509286

    The term "guide" is used loosely since I'm far from convinced any of the many alternatives is the best for all possible map & civ combinations (probably no such thing) ...


    The core of the strategy consists of turtling (3-5 cities), building a strong economy, getting technological lead and then unleashing blitzkrieg conquering the world in a few turns with a highly promoted army rushbrought in a single turn at a massive discount (Pay ~60% of building cost and ~40% of military unit cost)...


    Going from 2 archers to 40+ GWB/bomber/Stealth bombers with air repair, few submarines for home workboat defence/scouting,few fighters for interception/sweeps, medic mobile sam and a few tanks/paratroopers/XCOM squads for city conquest in the space of a single turn is what this strategy promises ...

    There are quite a few social policies mandatory for the above on top of the Technological lead and the happiness buffer - that’s what makes this strategy usually (very) late game - takes a lot of time to set it all up ...


    Mandatory (core) social policies

    (3 in commerce) Mercantilism 25% discount all purchases
    (1 in autocracy) Mobilization: Gold cost of purchasing units reduced by 33%.
    (3 in autocracy) Total War: +25% Production towards Military Units. New Units receive +15 XP

    The number of social policies I typically end up taking is somewhere > 20 and that is a tall order for most civs when trying to get pretty deep into the tech tree with a strong emphasis on GPT ... (maintaining high happiness will help with a few natural golden ages // bulbing some endgame writers might also be necessary if you miss out on the freebies)
    forgot to mention the gold buildings market/bank/stock exchanges - of course you'll need to have them up in all your core cities by the end game (the sooner the better) and you will even have to work quite a few gold specialists (especially after your're done teching and got free specialists)

    Trade routes also important - be sure to always monitor for changes - scout early for coastal trade partners - get harbours in all your coastal cities so they can all reach the best money yielding AI cities ... (few AI capitals bring much more trade gold than others - it pays more to reach those cities with trade routes from all of your cities - than to send all your trade routes from the same city - and be forced to trade with cities that bring less gold ...
    There is total of 5 freebie social policies (of which only 1 is guaranteed (World Fair)) getting the rest puts constrains on the tech priorities ...
    Can also use some late game writers to speed up/compensate for loss ...

    ----------------------

    Oracle (Philosophy tech) has top priority (best production city gets on it ASAP - even using controlled starvation to shave off turns - might cause me to build the NC out of the capital in a city that currently has decent production, has mountain and good food/sea access ...
    (sometimes on deity you will lose this despite best efforts )

    My first World Council proposal is always World Fare: 350 hammers for free social policy and a GA is deal that can't be beat ... Winning it for the temporary 100% culture is also often within the realm of possibility but because I go for it early I never risk to chance the hammers ...
    (This one is a sure thing ..)


    Autocracy(Industrialization Tech) Getting the 2 free autocracy policies is a big thing (I like 3 lvl 2 autocracy tenets and this means a whooping total of 7 social policies in autocracy)

    LVL1
    Industrial Espionage: Spies steal technologies twice as fast. (ASAP or skip...Use it to close tech gap if needed)
    Universal Healthcare: +1 Local Happiness from each National Wonder. (happy for natural GAs)
    Fortified Borders: +1 Local Happiness per Walls, Castle, Arsenal and Military Base. (you will build castles latter for Newsh ..)
    Mobilization: Gold cost of purchasing units reduced by 33%. (get this right before war - useless until then )
    Elite Forces: Wounded Military Units inflict 25% more damage than normal. (optional filler if you need more lvl 2 policies)

    LVL2
    Third Alternative: Strategic Resources provide double quantity. +5 Food and Science in Capital. (first pick after the freebies)
    Militarism: +2 Local Happiness per Barracks, Armoury and Military Academy. (part of the happiness buffer - can help with natural golden ages )
    Total War: +25% Production towards Military Units. New Units receive +15 XP. (take this right before going to war - before)
    Nationalism: Unit Maintenance cost reduced by 33%. (this one is optional - can save in excess of 100 GTP late game)
    Police State: +3 Local Happiness from each Courthouse. Build Courthouses in half the usual time. (get out of jail card - if you lose happiness control)

    LVL3
    Clausewitz's Legacy: Receive a +25% attack bonus to all Military Units for the first 50 turns after this tenet is added. (optional - bonus is decent, works for air units and will last you enough to conquer all 7 civs on a large map)

    (most AIs don't really like Industrialization (early ideology) and do not particularly love autocracy - but every now and then some of them will go and pick early Autocracy robbing you of 1 or even 2 free policies so you can't sleep on it. Industrialization beeline, get 3 coal, get the cash (loan)(should have Mercantilism discount) and buy the 3 factories ASAP. Free social policies are hard to beat ...)


    Prora (Flight tech - coastal city) - if there is at least another autocrat in the game (usually there tends to be at least one this also becomes top priority) Combo of free policy and happiness is hard to make up for if you lose it ...

    (beware you can still lose this after oxfording flight and using a GE for it - DO NOT GO radio//plastics with another autocrat in the game before flight or you'll be sorry. )
    ----------

    Rough Tech beelines:

    AH, Pottery, Luxuries, Philosophy(more luxuries) , Sailing, Engineering, Civil Service, Education, Compass, Metal Working, Astronomy (buy 1-3 observatories), Banking, Industrialization (buy 3 factories), Fertilizer, Scientific Theory(buy 3-4 public schools), Electricity(buy hydro plants), Biology(buy hospitals), Flight (prora), Radio(Eiffel + Broadway buy broadcast towers), Plastics(buy 3-4 research labs) , Railroad(newsh ..) , (option for last traderoute tech detour), see uranium , satellites (hubble) , lasers (modern armor) , stealth, Xcom, (nuclear missile game might be over before getting this)


    Starting policies: Tradition vs liberty ...

    I've done this with both liberty and tradition and ATM I'm inclined to say Tradition is the better choice for this strategy most of the times ...

    - 2-3 industrial era faith GEs help enormously with the tons of available wonders in the end game
    - Taller capital means more GPT from city (settled and puppets) connections
    - Monarchy extra GPT synergies with commerce opener
    - the extra happiness (monarchy legalism) also helps growth(science/specialists) and natural GoldenAges (culture culture culture)

    Then if you have good early culture and got Oracle you have the option to go Consulates (2 patronage) (safer bet/better option most of the time - get "free" culture, happy and units for defence/artefact guarding) or Organized Religion (will get more late game GE ammunition) ...

    For some civs/ rare start combos (good faith generation dirt -Ex Desert Faith//Faith World Wonders ) you can even finish piety later (settled 7 great prophets in my Ethiopian game (backup if you lose buy any great person with faith reformation belief)

    Next is the 3 policies in Commerce (up to Mercantilism) .. You should get to mercantilism before you need to buy the 3 factories ..

    Not you have the option to finish commerce for a ton of happiness but with a few "useless" precious social policies cost ...OR get at least 2 in rationalism (opener secularism) ... If happiness situation is solid rationalism is probably the better choice ...

    Autocracy policies will usually end be last (except Third Alternative: Strategic Resources provide double quantity. +5 Food and Science in Capital) which I tend to take right away ... The 5 food in capital arrives usually the same time I buy Hospital (the extra 10 food will give capital growth a second wind)
    The doubled strategics can all be sold for sorely needed cash (read above - buy factories, public schools, hospitals, broadcast tower(s), research labs,..even at 60% of cost it would still cost a ton of cash if you're not OCCing/Venice ...)

    Emergency happiness wise -

    Annex high pop puppets and rush buy courthouse (+3 happy with emergency policy), barracks, armory, walls, castle

    2 in Exploration if enough coastal cities/infrastructure, Tradition Monarchy/Landed Elite (if starting liberty)

    ========================
    Ideology pressure potential issues:

    Opera houses (Hermitage), Museums, Broadcast Towers, Archeologists + Artifacts, Oxford ,Eiffel tower ..those come after Factories, Public Schools,Hospitals ..

    Late - probably past turn 180 .. They will be high priority at that time but if there are Order/Freedom tourism pushers in the game you will feel some happiness stings (don't worry it only gets painful if get too many cities)..

    Give open borders to all other autocrats in the game so they can influence defend you .. Buy a few hotels/airports later if that’s what it takes to get you to the first level of influence with the ones pressuring you ..

    Using this strategy I've managed to get the over 100 happiness achievement (basically you should not get happy issues before you start conquering) ...
    Try to keep the happiness high for the natural golden ages (you'll need the culture) (buy all luxuries available on the market for 8 gpt) ...

    =======================
    Wonders to build

    Top Priority
    ------------
    Oracle - (philosophy) - (free policy)
    Big Ben - (industrialization) - (rush buy discount)
    Prora - (flight) (GE)
    Neuwchwanstein (railroad) - (happy + gold + culture) - probably safe bet, get it "early" because of the benefits
    Hubble (satellites) - deny it to AIs (GE)

    Nice to have (decent % to get)
    --------------
    Pyramids (if liberty) - nice to have
    Mausoleum of Halicarnaus - nice to have (if 3+ masonry resources) (gold is gold)
    Forbidden Palace - sometimes all AIs skip/delay patronage - very nice to have (happy + votes)
    Porcelain Tower - same deal with FP - if is still up (AIs) (you will sign quite a few RAs during the peaceful turtling period)
    Eiffel Tower - happy + tourism
    Broardway - culture + tourism
    Cristo Redentor - policy discount
    Pentagon - Might have some free hammers by that time - more important if you need to up alot of bombers to stealth bombers


    Priority to conquer
    -------------------
    Forbidden Palace - happy
    Notre Dame - happy
    Chicken Itza (burn a great artist after you get it)
    Machu Pitchu $
    Colossus & Petra (extra traderoutes - $)
    Statue of liberty (nice to have)

    ========================
    Most dangerous period in the game is (if you don't start next to shaka) the period of great loans and building purchase spree ...

    (factories, public schools, hospitals, broadcast tower(s), research labs)
    Even with all traderoutes set to cash and selling all luxuries and strategics your economy will be stretched thin for about 30-50 turns ...

    During this great vulnerability period (usually when your neighbours will start hating on you even harder because of ideology differences) you will lack the + XP buildings//autocracy +XP policy, autocracy discout and the money reserve to buy enough unpromotted units to survive a serious attack ...Even if you survive a neighbour DOW at this stage it will probably cost you added turns till the final victor turn ...

    You will have do a decent job at the diplomatic game - make world congress proposals your neighbours will like, keep them occupied with other wars if possible ....Delay / buy time ...
    =========================
    The Blitzkrieg - Conquering the world ... A formality mere formality at this stage ..

    " Neo: What are you trying to tell me, that I can dodge bullets?
    Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to."

    When all the preparations are in place the power balance reversal from "2 archers" lousy army to DOWing all remaining AI (should you wish to aldough I don't recommend it in a first attempt) without batting an eye happens in a single turn ...

    Having stockpiled a huge gold stack is highly recommendable.. But having a huge GPT will do the trick most times..Since you've been peaceful after the early worker steals there will be AIs willing to deal with you (you will need a huge war loan and usually some strategic resources) ...

    Many times (easiest option) you will have a successful Autocrat (friendly to you) in the game with a huge gold stack and strategics willing to sponsor your world domination project ... Even if sugar daddy is not present you'll only need to secure a few bits of strategics (CS//neutral AI) to put out enough a force to capture dirt with strategics from your closest neighbour ... Gold from capturing cities and Third Alternative will take care of the rest
    (infantry/paratroopers, Mobile sams, artillery are resource free troops that can be used in pinch to secure the bits of strategics necessary to get the party started ) ...

    Spies + Stealth + Xcom make possible to knock multiple capitals in a single turn (my current record is 3)

    ==========================
    Time wise I've managed ~10 domination victories with win times ~ (T301 ..T330)..The game I'm playing now with Polynesia will probably beat my "record" because I've got a great moai spam location ...

    ========================
    EDIT
    forgot to mention the gold buildings market/bank/stock exchanges - of course you'll need to have them up in all your core cities by the end game (the sooner the better) and you will even have to work quite a few gold specialists (especially after your're done teching and got free specialists)

    Trade routes also important - be sure to always monitor for changes - scout early for coastal trade partners - get harbours in all your coastal cities so they can all reach the best money yielding AI cities ... (few AI capitals bring much more trade gold than others - it pays more to reach those cities with trade routes from all of your cities - than to send all your trade routes from the same city - and be forced to trade with cities that bring less gold ...
     
  2. Vohbo

    Vohbo Warlord

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    Pretty much identical to Maddjinn's Venice playthrough and my own Japan playthrough, it's always the same and extremely succesful (you can take your time with conquest no need to rush it, you should have over a hundred turns easily)
     
  3. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    venice is a particular special case with a particular set of advantages and disadvantages

    Advantages
    -you have way more cash and less to spend it on (no need for 4 * factory/public school/ )
    -pays to finish commerce with them -faster merchant generation - buy super merchants with faith)
    -lower policy costs
    -can buy in puppets without annexing (barracks/armoury which puppets never build on their own )
    -cheaper (hammer wise) national wonders

    Disadvantages
    -lower BPT (only one city) with Merchants and Scientists competing for great person points ...
    -lower FPT - less faith brought great persons come lategame

    Overall by experience I would say the advantages outweigh the disadvantages for this strategy ... (was ready to begin war with GWB in my venice playtrough , with most others I need to wait until bombers/stealth bombers )
     
  4. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Is the moai really all that useful in BNW? Also, it feels to me like it's a waste if you don't early DoW with Kamehameha. Maybe it's worth putting one point into Honor for the culture to farm barbarians and make CS allies. Gotta get some advantage from those warriors!
     
  5. Vohbo

    Vohbo Warlord

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    I could not respond more extensively earlier, but I largely agreed with what you posted.

    I have a number of remarks though.

    I have used this strategy in BNW for Venice, the Zulus, Japan (there is a long series on youtube from me but I don't think it's particularly good as it's my first video series) and Morocco, all leading to pretty easy (though not fast) victories. I will agree that Venice seemed the easiest one of all of them.

    I have the following remarks:

    - This strategy desires Tradition + Liberty at least on maps or standard size and bigger. It's not necessary but it's just very powerful. I at the very least took the happiness policies in both trees each time. This is one of the cases where opening Tradition for border growth and early culture is almost as good as opening with Liberty, since you will almost always end up with both trees opened.

    - I would not ever delay conquest for even a moment after getting access to oil + flight. Great War Bombers are all you will be needing, and regular bombers are more of a luxury than a necessity. This strategy also works equally well starting with Frigates or Battleships. Delaying longer has a specific disadvantage:

    - Earlier conquest means less cultural threats. In my Japan game I took out the culture giant that was the Shoshone very early, giving me a ton of artifacts and boosting my culture output. This eventually gave me full liberty, full commerce, full rationalism, 6 in Autocracy and a bunch of loose policies. If you start conquering later you can be in a better position military wise but it really isn't needed. Only thing that changes is you need to be more careful with how to manipulate the diplo game.

    - You need about 16-20 bombers if you start at GWB's. The later you start, the more bombers you will need as you will likely need to fight on multiple fronts in order to conquer fast enough.

    - Filling out commerce in a wide puppet empire is much more valuable than it seems, that extra point of gold combined with the happiness is totally worth it I think.

    - My Autocracy policy path is almost always as follows:
    Tier 1: a) Industrial Espionage, b) Mobilization, c) Universal Healthcare, d) Fortified Borders (NOTE: walls do NOT give happiness with this policy)

    Tier 2: a) Third Alternative (But only if less than 14 oil, does not count for CS), otherwise Total War, b) regardless of the first Tier 2 always Militarism

    Third alternative is a waste if you don't use the oil, and you can make up for a lack of Total War pretty easily, and it doesn't seem worth it after your initial wave of purchases.
     
  6. ABigCivFan

    ABigCivFan Emperor

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    Yes, start the conquest earlier the better. You can usually play nice in the beginning while building a solid econ infrastructure for the war.

    But I prefer to prebuild siege for upgrading to Arty. This will allow much earlier conquest. and they are very effective taking out the first couple of AIs to get more lux and strategic resources.

    Not sure what you meant by "(Pay ~60% of building cost and ~40% of military unit cost)". But what we get with this combo is -73% units costs. A Great War Bomber is 390g, which equals to 1.2/1 gold to hammer ratio :crazyeye:

    As part of a deity dom strategy, it is always nice to ally up the CSs via Consulates, and pay some lux/gold to start wars among the AIs.
     
  7. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    Spoiler :


    and that is before flight when they start giving gold also ..
     
  8. Lord Yanaek

    Lord Yanaek Emperor

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    Unfortunately, the gold is only 1 no matter how much "Moai in a row" you have
    Xcom squad can attack after they paradrop? :eek:
     
  9. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    1 gold per tile might not sound like much but the moais alone (see previously attached picture) added ~50 GPT during a golden age ...

    XCOM cannot attack after they "teleport" (they can probably reach any point on a large map (send spy first for vision ! )) - they can pillage(heal) and then fortify ..Considering with this strategy they come with triple land defence promotion + fortification on top - takes about half the army of a deity AI to kill one in one turn ... They frequently take down enemy fighters and bombers by themselves while defending .. I started uploading a video LP related to this thread - I'll eventually get XCOM squads and you could see them in action ...
     
  10. Strategist83

    Strategist83 King

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    There's a strong synergy between Commerce and Autocracy. This is a solid strategy, especially if you did manage to grab Big Ben and perhaps even Brandenburg Gate as well (this wonder should be prioritized). If you do manage to secure these wonders the army you can buy will be so large and experienced you can only be stood up to if every other player ally against you.
     
  11. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    Big Ben high priority (AIs in BNW don't like commerce ?) - got like 10 times out of 10 so far ...
    Brandenburg is not critical for this strategy - that +15 XP autocracy policy equivalates a free Brandenburg Gate in all your cities (and stacking that with Brandenburg doesn't get you another full promotion - not even with Assyria) .. And some AIs love it so it usually goes fast on deity .. Ironically in the LP video linked in this thread I did manage to get it but is a rare exception not the rule ...
     
  12. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Having just finished a game with Kamehameha where I had roughly 30 base culture/turn from tiles in my capital, I can honestly say that if I hadn't managed to get a desert start and petra, it wouldn't have been worth it. I didn't need nearly the culture/turn that I had in the end-game, and before that I couldn't work my moai because I would be severely limiting my growth. Not to mention I could have had more farms...

    So basically it worked because I got a great start. The synergy of Petra and Desert Folklore with Moai is really strong, because you get food and production from your moai, but um, ANYTHING with Petra and Desert Folklore is really strong. I think the biggest value from moai is boosting the culture of your puppeted cities, IF you can convince them to work those tiles... The best part is that building the moai destroys the farm, so your puppeted crap city doesn't grow out of control. :p
     
  13. Vohbo

    Vohbo Warlord

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    I don't think the Moai are at all relevant to this discussion.

    I'm fairly convinced that Brandenburg is too out of the way to go for early. Even without Total War the strategy stands well enough, you definitely don't "need" your bombers to start at level 4 to succeed.
     
  14. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    You're right! Sorry for derailing the thread.

    On a more related note, I'm going to try this later. I'm better at mid-game attacks. My attempts at Domination that come late usually result in me losing to a Diplomatic Victory. I think because I tend to get unfocused and timing matters... I'll play around with this.
     
  15. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    last bump - finish the Polynesia LP game linked in OP

    got stealth at T257 Won game at T277 (new record for me from T301 ..)
    20 turns to conquer the world ... (also did not have sugar daddy to barrow money for bombers)

    Did a lot of silly mistakes during the fighting phase (was tired after a long day) so in proper hands victory times using this strategy don't really have to be too late ....
     
  16. ScantilyCladLad

    ScantilyCladLad Chieftain

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    heh, i did similar but just started dominating at GWB and only had about 12 (but still building/buying)

    Persia is a good candidate for this... longre golden ages, more gold and happiness

    so is rome if u cant afford buildings (buy in capital only and build in cities when u cant afford)

    its kinda boring to wait for stealth bombers tho, no?
     
  17. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    its not a question of boredom - if I don't have the economy, the discount policies the happiness buffer and tech superiority I won't start wars ... Sometimes it makes until stealth tech until I'm ready ...I had games where I started conquest with GWBs other where I did start with Bombers ...
     
  18. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    "Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot, but make it hot by striking."

    Kind of applies here. I like the concept of this strategy: super cheap ultra modern units for blitz domination. I also agree with people saying that you don't have to wait till airborne units are on line to do something like this.

    War is always beneficial: pillaging cities, tiles; peace deals. Besides, wider empire yields more cash. So, by delaying starting your first war till t.250 you are denying a huge amount of "free" resources. Depending on terrain, you can wage wars with CB, XB, Artillery, Gatling's, etc.

    I think this strategy would benefit from making a light emphasis on early (small) elite army, with a final goal of strengthening your army immensely by adopting commerce and autocracy.
     
  19. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    BNW introduced a new constrain -> the 5% tech penalty per city ..

    The times I went into a conquering spree before I had stealth it massively slowed down my tech rate .. Messy long war - because without the range of the stealth bombers //xcom teleport you need to capture way more puppets - puppets that drain happiness (and gold before they exit revolt) .. (4 core cities with 10-20 puppets all in revolt - and its not that puppets produce that much science per turn after they exit revolt ) ...

    Seems safer to me to deal with the tech tree while still small and then go blitz the world (snipe capitals) (took me 20 turns in the Polynesia game )
     
  20. Maxym

    Maxym King

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    Except with Assyria, they can catch up in tech in no time. I am getting close to launching the blitz now in my game, just need that Third Alternative for more oil. The map is Huge and 22 civs though, so it plays a bit different. I am hoping for 5-7 caps in last turn ;) but I have been constantly at war since turn 5.

    Check out the last link in the signature.
     

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