Viable options for getting Pottery/Writing/Alpha/Currency?

gavenkoa

Prince
Joined
Jun 11, 2019
Messages
470
Location
Ukraine
You want to expand because it gives you more might. If you expand too "fast" (overexpand) without acquiring income sources you crush your economy (meaning your research rate is zero otherwise you are punished with STRIKE).

The game steers you towards research but punishes research rate with expanse costs (you taxed more for more units, cities, larger distances and increasingly after T100).

You pay taxes and fund research:

* early on with river + lake + sea tiles or special resources
* early on with trade routes (over rivers or roads or coastal)
* with failgold from lost Wonders (including National)
* after Pottery with cottages
* after Writing with scientists and foreign trade routs
* after Alpha with Hammer => Research or Espionage => tech or tech / resource selling
* after Currency with Hammer => Wealth
* some techs serve as multipliers for Hammers / Research / Wealth
* Great People give gold or beakers

With small empire (compact 3-4 cities) there is no problem to research Pottery/Writing/Alpha/Currency via research slider even from +9c from the capital, which unlock various payment methods granting further expansion.

I tried overexpantion (10 cities after discovery of Writing). To break from failed economy I need to resort to scientists as a source of beakers + bulbing Math and for example trading for Alpha which I half researched with +7bpt from 2 capital scientists. The important things were to get to Pottery early & and working early cottages + working on lakes or coastal in newly built cities to cover costs of joining empire + connecting with roads to neighbors for foreign trade routes + postponing settling some cities till I get to the Writing (as capital's library is the only source of research with crashed economy).

As I understand alternative overexpantion option is via early rush (with archers / chariots / axmen / HA) - you get distant cities + pay for military upkeep, on the other hand every counquered city pays ~100G. I never experienced early rushes, I imaging that economy is also crashed at the end, but you might have extra 100-200G from city capturing...

So I am interested in several things:

* If you lack Apha/Currency where should I burn hammers? Military? Failfold requires certain detour in tech paths, what wonders should I target for and when can I buy or self-tech Alpha or Currency?
* Do you buy or self tech Apha/Currency? If you buy it do you partially research them?
* Do you skip Aplha Research and beeline to Curency Wealth?
* When & How is to get to Pottery/Writing/Alpha/Currency if research rate is low? Dismiss extra warriors? Failgold? Slow research with lib scientists? Some magical bulbing path? Early war for money from raized cities? Overflowing Warriors for +15G in Granary?
* When Pottery is avoided in favor of Animal Hasbandry as a path to Writing? What about Priesthood path to Writing?
* When overexpantion is not viable? When to stop? Is it always bad?

Early a was obsessed with ealry wonders, like Oracle or Pyramids, now I obcessed with blocking AI setters of taking land by placing extra cities far away so cottages & Currency are major early goal. Around T100-T110 I have Currency and 4-5 more cities then the best AI, I can normalize research rate to 30-50% or pump military.

IMM difficulty.
 
IMHO as soon as you have pottery, it is not too difficult. The solution is to spam cottages.

If you lack Apha/Currency where should I burn hammers?
Useful buildings and working low-hammer tiles (cottages!). In this case you are likely missing useful military techs. Use specialists only if you are at your happy-cap, or in emergencies. You want your cities to grow.
When Pottery is avoided [...]
Do not do this. Pottery is THE econ tech in the early game, due to cottages and granaries. If you are in economic trouble and have not yet researched pottery, use all available sources of gold and commerce. Work commerce tiles, get gold overflow from whips, etc, except going to war which usually is not worth it due to the high cost of units and the difficulties of war. Conquest gold does not pay for any conquest.

For the rest it matters if you play with the no tech trading option. If you do, falling behind is not as much of a problem, because the AIs can not trade. In a game with tech trading the AIs trade between them, effectively making them tech with the power of multiple civs. If you can trade with them that is not a problem. If you are too far behind to trade this is a significant problem.

This observation guides tech choices past the early game. You want to research techs the AI does not have and trade them for techs the AIs have, and possibly broker them. That means that you will typically not research some techs, amongst them Alpha, because the AI tends to grab them early. Instead go for techs that are good for trading. Depending on the AIs this may be Math, or more likely, Aesthetics. On higher difficulties this requires partially researching Alpha.

This also implies that you do not want to fall behind, thus making it important not to overexpand too much. You want to keep trading. Falling behind a bit is manageable, as there are some ways to catch up in trading, especially bulbing the right techs and some beelines. I find judging how much you can overexpand difficult. I would recommend trying different levels of overexpansion and comparing the date of your next milestone (maybe Lib?), possibly on the same map, to get a feeling for it.

Now to answer the rest of your questions:

when can I buy or self-tech Alpha or Currency?
Get Alpha ASAP, since it enables tech trading. Grab currency when you can get a good deal, it is a good tech.
Failfold requires certain detour in tech paths, what wonders should I target
Try for wonders that you have the resources for, there will be a few that require at most minor detours. Keep in mind that Failgold is a means to an end, the end being research. If the detour costs about as much as you expect to make in Failgold (or more), do not take it.
now I obcessed with blocking AI setters of taking land by placing extra cities far away
Consider letting an AI develop far away land for you and grab it yourself later. This will be faster in some cases.
 
* If you lack Apha/Currency where should I burn hammers? Military? Failfold requires certain detour in tech paths, what wonders should I target for and when can I buy or self-tech Alpha or Currency?
I've noticed you liked green mines a lot earlier. Now it sounds like you have understood the main issue with them - you need to put those :hammers: into something. Often you'd just want to work more cottages.

Mines are good for wonders and fail gold. Most convenient fail gold wonders depend on availability of marble/stone and tech path.
* Do you buy or self tech Apha/Currency? If you buy it do you partially research them?
* Do you skip Aplha Research and beeline to Curency Wealth?
I think here my answer differs a bit from @a pen-dragon 's comment, though perhaps he meant exclusively maps with access to every AI (=pangaeaish maps or snaky fractals). In general either go for alpha early or get it via trade and more often I get it via trade, partially researched if necessary.

If everyone else has alpha, you don't need it to trade techs and you can go currency first. For extra trade routes, ability to sell techs/resources and ability to build :gold:.
* When & How is to get to Pottery/Writing/Alpha/Currency if research rate is low? Dismiss extra warriors? Failgold? Slow research with lib scientists? Some magical bulbing path? Early war for money from raized cities? Overflowing Warriors for +15G in Granary?
Get pottery. Sometimes you can do some of the things you mention, but in general you should just work some river cottages. Maybe you don't always have river. Lakes+coast if nothing else.
* When Pottery is avoided in favor of Animal Hasbandry as a path to Writing? What about Priesthood path to Writing?
If you don't have cottageable land and can't use granaries effectively. Priesthood if you want Oracle for some reason. Generally these are viable if you have a strong source of :commerce: without cottages = gold, gems.
* When overexpantion is not viable? When to stop? Is it always bad?
Depends what exactly is meant by overexpansion. What it literally means is expanding too much. It is bad if/when the amount of :food:/:hammers: it produces doesn't compensate enough for the lost :gold: due to maintenance.
 
"When Pottery is avoided in favor of Animal Hasbandry as a path to Writing? What about Priesthood path to Writing?"

There are some bulb slingshots that can only be done by skipping pottery (=delaying until renaissance) . They are fun when you can pull them off. Most of the time however, you can reach comparable or better results using the much safer tech paths with decent commerce guaranteed by cottages.
 
Last edited:
I feel like you're overthinking and overcomplicating things. These questions are all pretty general and I think people need concrete examples from your games to be able to diagnose issues and help you more effectively instead of giving tips in general terms. Sometimes the questions you have might not actually address the issues you face. A shadow game would be useful.
 
If you have nothing to build then early on cottages are key. Green mines get you nowhere and just slow city growth. Pottery tech gets you granaries and cottages. Food allows whipping.

If you have pottery and libraries then expansion to 6-7 cities is not an issue. Sometimes you can go 10+ as long as you have the cottages and techs to cover the rising costs of your empire. Research and wealth can be nice.Having cities closer together helps reduce empire costs too. Capital's cottages worked by 2-3 cities.

Keep it simple and stick to the basics. Work commerce tiles when you start running a loss at 0% science.Don't expand heavily unless you have access to commerce creation.Pottery early on is a huge tech.
 
Capital's cottages worked by 2-3 cities.
Why? To get +4cpt after 10+20+40T faster for the capital? Because capital's palace +8cpt makes Library mandatory vs any other city. Plus you might settle GS and switch to Bureaucracy?

Pottery early on is a huge tech.
I tried Pottery before BW in a few games. Like one foot tech, then Pottery, then Mining + BW. By the time Worker ends with food it has time for few cottages and then probably one mine before I get BW for chopping.

That path is proven to be nice if you lack Gold-like income, have non-forested tiles for a cottage & if leader lacks initial Mining or have Wheel / Fishing / Agri.

Very early cottages progress fast towards great income, because early turns are so "cheap" to spend. You start a cottage at T20, next on T24, next on T28 (in a good case). Around T40 those river cottages give 3*3 = 9cpt (better than Gold mine), at T60 give 3*4 = 12cpt (~ 2 Gold mines??). Around T100 give 3*5 = 15cpt.
 
Research and wealth can be nice
Initially I valued Currency much (on Monarch difficulty), but than I build more cottages & improved them, so deficit could be covered even without Curr/Alpha/Writing (on IMM).

Unfortunately at some point of the game lack of Food/Hammer to Beaker conversion make research painfully slow - you have production but additional units or buildings don't increase research rate much or even increase expanses. Unless you plan a war.

Libs are OKish to get to Alpha/Curr, but Alpha/Curr are real economical breakthrough. If you don't failgold on Marble/Stone/Industrial.

On lower difficulties I heavily relied on Currency - the point when I become "better" than AIs.

On IMM it is costly to get to Curr as I lose trade race or Curr compete with other techs for breaking isolation / military (Archery or AH might delay) / happiness (Monarchy). I found that it is OK to get to Alpha (via Math and partial Alpha researching or self-researching) as long as cottages (& lakes / shores in worst case) keep balance positive.

So if in the past Curr was much have (which I get at T100-110 on IMM), now I depends on at least Alpha (which I get around T70-80). I have never waged wars before T100, so I worry about conversion of production into research. Libs are weak. At most I keep 3 libs running because it is realistically to expect GP eventually.

It is puzzling why people consider Research & Wealth as luxury... I miss something, probably because of my playstyle (no early wars, eager land claiming), so I value them much. What are other alternative options for delaying Apha/Curr?

What are realistic trade options to buy them from AI? Aesthetics / Math / Metal Casting?
 
Why? To get +4cpt after 10+20+40T faster for the capital? Because capital's palace +8cpt makes Library mandatory vs any other city. Plus you might settle GS and switch to Bureaucracy?
Yes, to grow those cottages. And yes, capital in general has a library sooner than some other cities. Multiplied by bureau+academy. Don't settle GS.
I tried Pottery before BW in a few games. Like one foot tech, then Pottery, then Mining + BW.
In general, BW before pottery. Chopping is just so good, because it allows you to expand faster. That is even more important than cottages.
Unfortunately at some point of the game lack of Food/Hammer to Beaker conversion make research painfully slow - you have production but additional units or buildings don't increase research rate much or even increase expanses. Unless you plan a war.
At the point when you have monarchy (or another way for a very high :)-cap) you don't do much with :hammers:. Thus mines become much weaker than cottages.
It is puzzling why people consider Research & Wealth as luxury... I miss something, probably because of my playstyle (no early wars, eager land claiming), so I value them much. What are other alternative options for delaying Apha/Curr?

What are realistic trade options to buy them from AI? Aesthetics / Math / Metal Casting?
Not sure if I understand your problem. Aesth is good trade bait and you should often go for that if you have marble (failgold, maybe finish some wonder, music). MC is good trade bait but otherwise trash and leads to nothing good even, except optics when you need to take that route.
 
I never said skip BW. You generally want both techs before you have 6-7 cities. With imperialist it is possible to whip/chop 6-7 cities pretty quickly.

Can't remember last time i settled a GS or built an academy. Very little value if you are spamming cuirs. More value if you play the late game.

If you are playing monarch city costs should be lower than immortal level which I play for fun. Techs will be cheaper too.

I suspect your gameplay is maybe causing you issues. Especially if you are playing to get huts and delaying workers for scouts at the start.

So many unknowns here about what you are actually doing in your game. Worker first and techs to improve food first. Then consider BW and pottery. Don't waste early turns building road.

Do you have any saves around 1500bc or earlier? Maybe 1ad too.On Monarch getting Oracle should be very possible albeit it means 2-3 tech diversion away from pottery. On Monarch level you can likely get away with delaying wonders.
 
Do you have any saves around 1500bc or earlier? Maybe 1ad too.On Monarch getting Oracle should be very possible albeit it means 2-3 tech diversion away from pottery. On Monarch level you can likely get away with delaying wonders.
Today's game save T110 / 125BC with my chain of thoughts / reasoning:


I struggle on IMM level as understand most of the game mechanics, so interested in perfecting games with occasional role-playing (like to build Parthenon to simulate Philosophical trait for other leaders).
 
Not sure if I understand your problem
For me Research or Wealth is a major priority. Other people call it "nice to have". I don't understand why. I don't practice early wars (pre T110 / 1AD), maybe I wasn't in a situation where Aplha / Curr are useless for the goal.
 
Basically look at the overall map situation.
Text doesn't help as much as pics or saves with that :)

Example..if your cap has Pigs + plains cow + horsies + a green river mine maybe you don't need to push for BW before pottery.
There are so many base:hammers: that you can look at other city spots and raise some :commerce: first.
If there are 2 nice places with floodplains and / or green rivers, pottery first makes so much sense.

Counter example..if you have a gold mine + 1:food: tile, you will look for production cos there are no issues with research..and gold doesn't give much for settlers & workers.
Look for a general plan after initial scouting.
 
I tend to go for a land grab and for trying to block the AI instead of focusing on key cities. Many times it pays off. Often I get behind and the AI, which could have developed an area for me to take off her (I suck at early aggression), gets to sit down on her cities and tech past me and beat me afterwards. Dunno if it helps, thought it realated to your first post
 
For difficult maps, fishing gets you to pottery. If there's no river or water tiles, and only plains cows... haha good luck gg no re.
 
Basically look at the overall map situation.
Text doesn't help as much as pics or saves with that :)

Example..if your cap has Pigs + plains cow + horsies + a green river mine maybe you don't need to push for BW before pottery.
There are so many base:hammers: that you can look at other city spots and raise some :commerce: first.
If there are 2 nice places with floodplains and / or green rivers, pottery first makes so much sense.

Counter example..if you have a gold mine + 1:food: tile, you will look for production cos there are no issues with research..and gold doesn't give much for settlers & workers.
Look for a general plan after initial scouting.
In other words play the map. One size does not fit all. Worry about currency/alphabet once you have planned out the early game.

Look at Sampsa play in terms of cottages and having 3 cities working 10 cottages to super boost your capital.
 
Today's game save T110 / 125BC with my chain of thoughts / reasoning:


I struggle on IMM level as understand most of the game mechanics, so interested in perfecting games with occasional role-playing (like to build Parthenon to simulate Philosophical trait for other leaders).
Most wonders are pointless and just slow down your empire.With a decent golden age you can farm 3-5 GS using pacifism. The extra 50% stacked makes little difference. Chance of great artist can be very annoying. Same for NE. Likely not needed. Bulb edu, bulb lib. Pends what dates you are playing your games till. Most wonders get obsoleted at some point.
 
I tend to go for a land grab and for trying to block the AI instead of focusing on key cities. Many times it pays off. Often I get behind and the AI, which could have developed an area for me to take off her (I suck at early aggression), gets to sit down on her cities and tech past me and beat me afterwards
Quite resonate with my play-style. That eagerness for remote cities, while optimum gameplay for higher levels is a compact empire - let AIs develop the land for you. This implies military conquest.

I wonder if other winning options requie conquest. I'he never ended with anything besides domination.
 
If you have pottery and libraries then expansion to 6-7 cities is not an issue. Sometimes you can go 10+ as long as you have the cottages and techs to cover the rising costs of your empire.
This is bonkers. I would be a lot more conservative than that.
You have no chance to tech up if you expand like that. I think cities 4-5 have to be settled after Writing (4th might be before). Cities -6+ have to be settled after Alpha trade (6th might have happened).
It is dependent on how rich the map is but :
Settling the 5th city before writing is not worth it
Settling the 6th city before Alpha trade is not worth it

The more cities you have, the less return you get from new cities. Both because of maintenance and because the quality of that last city will be lower than any previous.
You can somewhat "get back" the return of those cities if you settle them in a wave after a tech target.
Research turns, however, you cannot get back. Maintenance control. Getting higher up on the tech tree by 5-10 turns is a lot better than squeezing out that last early city.

For clarity :
I would be perfectly fine with
3 cities, 5 workers, writing 2000-1600 BC
5 cities,3 libraries, 7 workers, Alpha trade 1000 BC. Play the map sure. As far as timings go,
Just build workers before settlers and settlers after tech targets if you want to tech better.

ps : I also think that build research/wealth is marginal but maybe I just undervalue it.
 
Last edited:
Depends on difficulty level.

But it is uncommon for me to reach alphabet by T75 (1000BC). Too much unit maintenance for scouting against barbarian units spawning. And impossible if there's an aggressive neighbour can attack before 1000BC.
 
Back
Top Bottom