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Vichy France, Is this Normal?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Road to War' started by Aleenik, Jul 16, 2008.

  1. Aleenik

    Aleenik Chieftain

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    First of all I am using the 3.0 Map Pack(the beta version)..but anyways here is what happened
    Im Germany, after I defeated France in Europe, about 2 turns later Vichy France was established, Vichy France took control of all of Frances Remaining Citys, so in Turn France was Destroyed. Is this Normal? Im on the Historical Version and Italy isnt even my ally yet but Vichy France is:)..i just find it weird becuz i know Free France was a force to be reckoned with in Africa and such, yet they are no longer around cuz Vichy France took over all their cities...Vichy France even owns Beirut and all..shouldnt that be Free France Area?
     
  2. Dale

    Dale Chieftain

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    Yes Vichy is normal. Vichy France represents France post-surrender. French surrender will occur if Axis (in the Global map) occupy European France. All French colonies were considered "Vichy France" as the Vichy France retained control of the overseas colonies. The "Free French" were setup by de Gaulle in London, not within any French held territories.

    Eventually, the Allies persuaded diplomatically, or militarily, French colonial governments to support the Allies (and consequently de Gaulle's Free French). But these didn't start occuring till 1941 onwards. In fact, the "Free French" middle east you talk of, only occured because England occupied the areas and handed them to de Gaulle's "puppet Allied government".

    So historically, France (as based from Vichy in southern France) was the OFFICIALLY recognised French Government from 1 July 1940 (till the liberation of Paris in 1944). The English actually recognised this government and had an embassy with this French government till Petain through them out and allied with Germany. The Allies setup de Gaulle's "Free French" so that they could persuade the French colonies to change sides. So effectively, both governments were puppet governments, used very diplomatically to secure assuarances from overseas territories so the Allies didn't have to worry about sending troops there to occupy them.

    Very interesting history really. :)
     
  3. danrh

    danrh Chieftain

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    Dale are you saying that if all of continental France is occupied then the French surrender and transition should occur immediately? Because that didn't happen for me I conquered France well before July 1940 but the French did not surrender and in fact I was obliged to send troops to North Africa to support my Italian allies against twin thrusts from the French and Commonwealth forces. In fact IIRC it wasn't until early 1941 that the French capitulated, interrupting my conquering of their African colonies.

    Dan
     
  4. Dale

    Dale Chieftain

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    Plus the random component from AOP2. ;)

    But the occupation trigger is all of European France.
     
  5. Fagan

    Fagan Chieftain

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    It's cool to get some special events like this vichy switch but it would be cool if some tunning was done.

    When Vichy gets the control all units disappear, some should be generated, all those empty cities look weird. You can provide some units through air transport but well it looks so unrealistic.

    The east of north africa also become Vichy, I think (haven't check) it's unrealistic, in fact this part never been controlled by Vichy and later was controlled by British through De Gaulle. The worse of this is that combined with air transport it's a big hole in the scenario. It setup a door to quick invade this part of the map and take easily all british oil resources.

    Air transport is a general problem in this scenario but in this case it's even worse. But ok it's the whole north africa area that is spoiled by air transport possibility.
     
  6. Dale

    Dale Chieftain

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    You're mistaken Fagan. Initially ALL of France was controlled by the Vichy Government. It was later that the Allies started coercing or taking back French terrotories and giving them to De Gaulle.
     
  7. Fagan

    Fagan Chieftain

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    Initially of what? In 1939 it was still a Paris government. Close to July 40 the defeat was obvious. The president left and asked Petain to replace him, then 2 clans opposed, one with Petain that wanted request armistice to Germans, another with De Gaulle that wanted move the government to colonies and continue the war from here. The Petain clan win the debate, left to Vichy (from Bordeaux) when De Gaulle left to London and made his call in radio.

    Also you have a very false vision of De Gaulle being a puppet of English, since the beginning it was his goal to use English to build a parallel government to Vichy, continue war and protect France interest when the war will end.

    At this point British was quite desperate and any attempt including bring some French colonies on her side was a very good point to take. Felix Eboué governor of a French colony declared to be on De Gaulle side since the day of the call of free France made by De Gaulle the 18 June 40. But the official join to De Gaulle has been made the 26 August 40 and some other French colonies followed.

    When Vichy was founded and the armistice done in fact no colonies joined any side neither Vichy nor De Gaulle. It's only later the some joined De Gaulle as I mentioned above when some other declared to be on Vichy side.

    During this time De Gaulle setup the base of French armies and spy organization plus later obtained from Churchill some loaning for resistance in France, loaning refund to British before the end of the war. Also De Gaulle constantly put pressure on Churchill to be sure the France interest will be respected when the war will end.
     
  8. Dale

    Dale Chieftain

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    Check Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

    Vichy France was the official French Government till July 1944 (after Operation Overlord and de Gaulle's Government was proclaimed). Even the Allies didn't recognise de Gaulle's Government till October 1944 when they moved back to Paris.

    de Gaulle's Government survived on the patronage of Churchill (and England). In reality, no other Allies wanted anything to do with de Gaulle (who was seen as a 2nd rate leader by the Big 3).

    And:

    I will concede that a couple of France's colonies declared for de Gaulle immediately, but the majority initially just went with the Government (to Petain's in Vichy).

    But I'll stick with the decision to transfer all French assets to Vichy France.
     
  9. Fagan

    Fagan Chieftain

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    Not sure an historical debate is required here. :) Yes Roosevelt was quite blind to see De Gaulle as you quoted. Well, the event that follow show how idiot was this point of view.

    Yes he hated De Gaulle since the beginning and made everything to push it out of scene and failed. American and primary Roosevelt even have planned to consider France as an enemy and take all French colonies and remove them from France. It was even planned to have US government to control France. He failed that too and totally. The only thing Roosevelt succeed is that no Free France force took part of the Torch operation unlike wanted De Gaulle.

    If Roosevelt always hated De Gaulle many important American get a different point of view including Eisenhower and Cordell Hull. For example the initial plan for France invade wasn't to go directly to Paris but De Gaulle changed allies plan, with push right to Paris and De Gaulle tank division that enter first and free Paris. Not only for the symbol but to immediately setup a government in France to be sure American don't setup a puppet government.

    For sure the help of Churchill have been major and De Gaulle and him had good relationship but that wasn't a puppet relationship, from far and there was some animate debates sometimes. And if finally Roosevelt lost on all points but Torch regarding France and despite his hate of De Gaulle, that's also because De Gaulle never been a puppet beside to have get the support of Churchill.

    For the scenario for sure you do as you want, it's just strange to be able to easily take all British oil resources before end of 40.
     
  10. Dale

    Dale Chieftain

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    The problem with de Gaulle was he didn't trust any of the Allies, not even his personal friend Churchill. And in response he received mistrust, and in some cases hatred, from the English and US. If not for Churchill, de Gaulle and his counter-Government would have received nothing, and not even considered as a major nation of the Allies.

    He was court-marshalled and sentenced to death for treason by the French Government after leading the rebellion against the Government's call for surrendering to Germany/Italy and had to flee to England under the protection of Churchill to escape not only German police but also French police.

    I think his main problem was trying to place himself (and France) above the other Allies, and at a minimum at the same level as Britain, US and USSR (even though France was a defeated nation). He made a lot of enemies, and without the support of Churchill he would have be silenced very quickly in the later part of 40 early 41. That's why I called his Government a puppet one because it had to work very closely with Churchill for his support to at least receive a voice.

    Of course, after Torch and relocation to Algiers all of the Allies were more tolerant of his persistant "we have full freedom" claims.

    One thing you have to say about de Gaulle, regardless of the fact that everything he touched or got involved in became a mess and won him MANY enemies (can anyone say "Vive le Quebec Libre!"??? :lol:), he did revive France into the Fourth World Power in the Fifth Republic.

    As for French Middle-East (near English oil), they declared for Vichy, and were taken over by English forces (about the same time English military re-occupied Iraq).
     
  11. Joe Harker

    Joe Harker 1st in the Premiership!

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    Was he!!!??? I always got the impression that both Churchill and the Americans all disliked him, but used him to help them gain the support of French colonies to avoid fighting through them.

    de Gaulle is probably one of the people most involved in stiring up inter British Frech rivalry since the second world war
     
  12. Fagan

    Fagan Chieftain

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    Well so you mean that Churchill was the puppet of De Gaulle as he got from him everything he wanted and despite he was hated by everybody. Same for American, puppets of De Gaulle who got through Churchill all he want from them. :)

    For Roosevelt, the point was that he was manipulated by French in America that was against De Gaulle or more exactly that was for Petain who still had his aura coming from the big war. I don't know very well the details but I know it was a bit complicated. Petain was quite old and didn't had a clear mind anymore (as it happened a few years later to Roosevelt at Yalta) and Laval who was very influencing in this government was a French Nazi, that's what Roosevelt wanted to support.

    For Churchill I can understand he continue during some time to have hope to get something from Vichy, mainly from the colonies. He authorized anyway De Gaulle to make his call the 18 June and only asked him to soften the first 2 sentences to soften the words against the Vichy government.

    For those colonies to the east so ok I didn't knew, it's still a major unrealistic hole in the scenario, in no way German could have done what's possible through those colonies in the scenario. I know it's not a realistic simulation.
     

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