[TOT] Victoria Light Concept (Want Feedback)

[Konig15]

Based on the Imperialism mod, I'm looking to create what I call Victoria Light, after the Paradox Game Victoria

It's not quite the sandbox and is more historically focused.

I was gonna keep the Big Powers setup but move the action to 1859, to include a small scale American Civil War, the unification of Itlay and the German Wars of Unification. My goal is to have 420 turn game:
Six turns per year from 1859-1929, or maybe 1919.

I'm hoping to switch out events and units kinda like Red Front, to save on units, which I want to save for event units. See despite the scripted nature of the project, I was hoping to do SOME alt-history and adventuring, kind of like the Verne Scenario but this one is less dependent on adventuring.

Players are still:
Germany/Prussia (grey)
France and co allies* (blue)
United States (cyan)
British (pinkish)
Japanese (Green)
Russians (White)
Nuetrals^
Orientals (Red)

*allies include Austrian parts of future Austria Hungary, post-1860 Vatican City, the Confederate States and Imperial Mexico. This is to make sure the AI doesn't run things like a total dum dum like it would if they were barbarian.

Neutrals are mostly intended to be Spain and Italy but mostly include the "civilized" non-Great Powers. Thus the Neutrals represent Scandinavia, the Netherlands and the eventual victors of the torrent of wars in Latin America. Unlike Imperialism, Latin America will have to be painfully cleared out as these governments often barely controlled the area outside of their Capitals.

Using Imperialism's units as a base I've pared down number of unit slots to 96, giving me 31 units to work with, in theory:

Labourers, nil, 0, 1.,0, 0a,1d, 2h,1f, 20,0, 5, nil, 000000000000000
Engineers, nil, 0, 2.,0, 0a,2d, 3h,1f, 40,0, 5, Exp, 000000000000000
2

Exotic Foot Europe
Italian Minor, nil, 0, 2.,0, 0a,1d, 2h,1f, 30,0, 5, nil, 000000000000000
Balkan Rebels, nil, 0, 1.,0, 10a,5d, 5h,1f, 5,0, 0, nil, 000001000000010
Finnish Rebels, nil, 0, 1.,0, 8a,4d, 6h,1f, 3,0, 0, nil, 000000000000000
Boer Troops, nil, 0, 1.,0, 5a,5d, 5h,1f, 7,0, 1, Ast, 000001000000010
4 (6)

Exotic Foot Islam/Africa
Tribal Rifles, nil, 0, 1.,0, 4a,4d, 4h,1f, 3,0, 1, nil, 000000000000000
Arab Rifles, nil, 0, 1.,0, 4a,4d, 5h,1f, 3,0, 1, nil, 000000000000000
Muslim Rifles, nil, 0, 2.,0, 4a,4d, 5h,1f, 3,0, 1, nil, 000000000000000
African Warriors,nil, 0, 1.,0, 7a,1d, 4h,1f, 3,0, 0, nil, 000000000000010
Malay Warriors, nil, 0, 1.,0, 10a,4d, 4h,1f, 3,0, 0, nil, 000001000000110
Abyssinians, nil, 0, 1.,0, 5a,5d, 5h,1f, 3,0, 1, nil, 000001000000010
Egyptian Army, nil, 0, 1.,0, 5a,5d, 5h,1f, 5,0, 1, nil, 000001000000010
7 (13)

Non-Islamic Asia
Indian Rebels, nil, 0, 1.,0, 10a,5d, 5h,1f, 3,0, 0, nil, 000001000000010
Bandit Raiders, nil, 0, 1.,0, 12a,4d, 5h,1f, 3,0, 0, nil, 000001000000110
Chinese Army, nil, 0, 1.,0, 5a,5d, 5h,1f, 5,0, 1, nil, 000001000000010
Indian Troops, nil, 0, 1.,0, 4a,4d, 2h,1f, 4,0, 1, Ast, 000010000000000
Gurkhas, nil, 0, 1.,0, 7a,5d, 2h,2f, 6,0, 0, Ast, 000001000000011
Sepoys, Mob, 0, 2.,0, 8a,3d, 2h,2f, 7,0, 0, Ast, 000000000000011
6 (19)

Americas
Tribal Raiders, nil, 0, 1.,0, 3a,1d, 2h,1f, 3,0, 0, nil, 000000000000010
Native Raiders, nil, 0, 1.,0, 5a,1d, 2h,1f, 3,0, 0, nil, 000000000000010
War Party, nil, 0, 2.,0, 8a,1d, 3h,1f, 3,0, 0, nil, 000000000000011
3 (22)

Exotic Cavalry
Arab Raiders, nil, 0, 2.,0, 8a,1d, 2h,1f, 3,0, 0, nil, 000000000000011
Tribal Cavalry, nil, 0, 2.,0, 8a,1d, 4h,1f, 3,0, 0, nil, 000000000000011
Muslim Cavalry, nil, 0, 2.,0, 8a,2d, 5h,1f, 3,0, 0, nil, 000000000000011
Berber Cavalry, nil, 0, 2.,0, 8a,2d, 6h,1f, 3,0, 0, nil, 000000000000011
Tatar Cavalry, nil, 0, 2.,0, 8a,2d, 6h,2f, 3,0, 0, nil, 000000000000011
Boer Kommando, nil, 0, 3.,0, 8a,3d, 3h,1f, 5,0, 0, Ast, 000000000000011
6 (28)

Basic Infantry
Peasant Rifles, nil, 0, 1.,0, 6a,4d, 1h,1f, 3,0, 1, Bro, 000000000000000
Militia, nil, 0, 1.,0, 5a,5d, 2h,1f, 5,0, 1, War, 000000000000000
Marines, nil, 0, 1.,0, 8a,5d, 2h,1f, 6,0, 0, Amp, 000000000000100
3 (31)

Basic Ships
Steam Yacht, Stl, 2, 9.,0, 0a,2d, 2h,1f, 5,2, 4, SE, 000000000000000
Freighter, nil, 2, 12.,0, 0a,3d, 2h,1f, 10,4, 4, Stl, 000000000000000
Ocean Liner, nil, 2, 15.,0, 0a,4d, 2h,1f, 25,8, 4, PT, 000000000000000
Gunboat, Sea, 2, 3.,0, 4a,2d, 2h,1f, 7,1, 2, Sth, 000000000100000
Ironclad, Nav, 2, 5.,0, 4a,4d, 3h,1f, 11,0, 2, Iro, 000000000000000
Steam Frigate, Sea, 2, 10.,0, 4a,4d, 2h,1f, 9,1, 2, Sth, 000000000000000
Steam Warship, Sea, 2, 9.,0, 4a,4d, 2h,2f, 12,1, 2, Sth, 000000000000000
7 (38)

Capital Ships
Destroyer, nil, 2, 16.,0, 6a,6d, 3h,1f, 14,0, 2, Nav, 000000000000001
Light Cruiser, nil, 2, 14.,0, 7a,7d, 3h,2f, 18,0, 2, Sea, 000000000000000
Armoured Cruiser,U1, 2, 12.,0, 10a,10d, 3h,2f, 24,0, 2, Mag, 000000000000000
Battleship, U1, 2, 12.,0, 12a,12d, 3h,3f, 30,0, 2, Cmp, 000000000000000
Submarine, nil, 2, 10.,0, 20a,6d, 2h,3f, 20,0, 2, Sup, 000000000001001
Aero Carrier, nil, 2, 12.,0, 10a,10d, 4h,1f, 38,0, 4, Roc, 000000010000001
Dreadnought, nil, 2, 12.,0, 15a,15d, 4h,4f, 40,0, 2, NF, 000000000000000
Battlecruiser, nil, 2, 14.,0, 14a,12d, 4h,4f, 36,0, 2, U1, 000000000000001
8 (46)

Trade
Mfg Goods, nil, 0, 1.,0, 0a,1d, 1h,1f, 6,0, 7, Rec, 000001100000010
Goods Truck, nil, 0, 3.,0, 0a,1d, 1h,1f, 8,0, 7, Cmb, 000000000000010
2 (48)


Airships
Monoplane, AFl, 1, 8.,1, 3a,2d, 2h,2f, 8,0, 3, Fli, 000000000010001
Biplane, nil, 1, 10.,1, 4a,3d, 2h,2f, 10,0, 3, AFl, 000000000010001
Bomber, nil, 1, 8.,2, 12a,1d, 2h,2f, 14,0, 0, SFl, 000000000000001
Airship, nil, 1, 10.,4, 8a,2d, 2h,2f, 30,0, 0, ToG, 100000001000001
4 (52)

Artillery
Heavy Artillery, nil, 0, 1.,0, 13a,2d, 3h,2f, 9,0, 0, Rob, 000000001000001
Cannon, Mat, 0, 1.,0, 10a,1d, 2h,1f, 5,0, 0, Gun, 000000000000000
Rifled Gun, Met, 0, 1.,0, 10a,1d, 2h,2f, 6,0, 0, Mat, 000000000000000
Artillery, Too, 0, 1.,0, 11a,1d, 2h,2f, 7,0, 0, Met, 000000001000000
Field Artillery, nil, 0, 1.,0, 12a,1d, 2h,2f, 8,0, 0, Too, 000000001000001
5 (57)

Modern Units
Assault Troops, nil, 0, 1.,0, 9a,5d, 3h,2f, 10,0, 0, Tac, 000000100000100
Irregulars, nil, 0, 1.,0, 6a,4d, 4h,1f, 6,0, 1, Gue, 000001000000010
Armoured Car, nil, 0, 3.,0, 6a,6d, 4h,1f, 10,0, 1, Chi, 000000000000000
Tank, Mob, 0, 1.,0, 8a,8d, 4h,1f, 12,0, 0, Ldr, 000000000000000
Light Tank, nil, 0, 2.,0, 10a,9d, 4h,1f, 14,0, 0, Mob, 000000000000000
Machine Guns, nil, 0, 1.,0, 6a,6d, 3h,1f, 7,0, 1, MP, 000000000000000
6 (63)

Specific Units Britian
Maxim Gun, nil, 0, 1.,0, 6a,6d, 3h,2f, 7,0, 1, MP, 000000000000000
Highlanders, Tac, 0, 1.,0, 8a,5d, 3h,1f, 7,0, 0, Amp, 000000000000110
Highland Rifles, nil, 0, 1.,0, 9a,5d, 3h,2f, 10,0, 0, Tac, 000000000000110
Heavy Gun, nil, 0, 1.,0, 13a,2d, 4h,2f, 10,0, 0, Rob, 000000001000001
Riflemen, Csc, 0, 1.,0, 5a,5d, 2h,1f, 5,0, 1, War, 000000000000000
Foot Guards, nil, 0, 1.,0, 7a,7d, 3h,1f, 5,0, 1, War, 000011000000010
Britsh General, nil, 0, 2.,0, 8a,8d, 6h,1f, 5,0, 0, Bro, 000010000000111
7 (70)

Specific Units United States
U.S. Army, Csc, 0, 1.,0, 5a,5d, 2h,1f, 5,0, 1, War, 000000000000000
U.S. Marines, Tac, 0, 1.,0, 8a,5d, 2h,2f, 7,0, 0, Amp, 000000000000100
U.S. Cavalry, Mob, 0, 2.,0, 8a,3d, 2h,2f, 6,0, 0, Hor, 000000000000011
Parrott Rifle, Mat, 0, 1.,0, 10a,1d, 2h,1f, 5,0, 0, Gun, 000001000000000
U.S. General, nil, 0, 2.,0, 8a,8d, 6h,1f, 5,0, 0, Bro, 000010000000111
5 (75)

Specfic Units Japan
Imperial Marines,nil, 0, 1.,0, 8a,5d, 2h,2f, 6,0, 0, Amp, 000000000000110
1 (76)

Specific Units Russia
Infantry, Csc, 0, 1.,0, 5a,5d, 2h,1f, 4,0, 1, War, 000000000000000
Elite Regiment, nil, 0, 1.,0, 8a,5d, 2h,2f, 6,0, 0, Amp, 000000000000100
Cossacks, Csc, 0, 2.,0, 8a,3d, 2h,1f, 5,0, 0, Hor, 000000000000011
Elite Grenadiers,nil, 0, 1.,0, 7a,7d, 2h,4f, 5,0, 0, War, 000011000000110
Imperial Guards, nil, 0, 1.,0, 7a,7d, 2h,4f, 5,0, 0, War, 000011000000110
5 (81)


Specific Units Germany
Grenadiers, Csc, 0, 1.,0, 5a,5d, 2h,1f, 5,0, 1, War, 000010000000000
Stormtroopers, nil, 0, 1.,0, 9a,5d, 3h,2f, 10,0, 0, Tac, 000010100000110
Uhlans, Mob, 0, 2.,0, 9a,3d, 3h,1f, 7,0, 0, Hor, 000010000000011
Field Gun, nil, 0, 1.,0, 12a,1d, 2h,3f, 9,0, 0, Too, 000010001000001
4 (85)


Specific Units France
Infantrie, Csc, 0, 1.,0, 5a,5d, 2h,1f, 5,0, 1, War, 000000000000000
Zouaves, nil, 0, 1.,0, 4a,4d, 2h,1f, 4,0, 1, Ast, 000010000000000
Chasseurs, Mob, 0, 2.,0, 9a,2d, 2h,2f, 7,0, 0, Ast, 000000000000011
Bullet Scout, AFl, 1, 10.,1, 3a,3d, 2h,2f, 9,0, 3, Fli, 000000000010001
Voltigeur Guards,nil, 0, 1.,0, 7a,7d, 3h,1f, 5,0, 1, War, 000011000000010
5 (90)


Speciality
Cavalry, Mob, 0, 2.,0, 8a,3d, 2h,1f, 5,0, 0, Hor, 000000000000011
Agent, nil, 0, 2.,0, 2a,2d, 4h,4f, 99,0, 6, nil, 110001101000111
Expedition, nil, 0, 4.,1, 0a,4d, 1h,1f, 6,0, 3, Map, 000000000000011
Anarchists, nil, 0, 3.,0, 9a,1d, 6h,3f, 3,0, 0, Esp, 000000000000110
4 (94)

Event Units
Tribal Camp, nil, 0, 0.,0, 0a,1d, 3h,1f, 20,0, 1, no, 000000000000000
Tribal Capital, nil, 0, 0.,0, 0a,2d, 3h,1f, 20,0, 1, no, 000000000000000
2 (96)

I was thinking each Great Power should have distinct infantry and access to a general unit of some kind. I'm thinking of capping country-specific units to five apiece.

At this point, I was thinking that capitals of non-major powers need 0 movement DIP unit with high defense values to represent the difficulty of subverting that regime to a GP side.
Also, I wanted to have a relatively cheap "missionary" a unit that would be a dip, with rewards for buying out tribal holdings instead of destroying them, like maybe a 1/20 chance fo generating an advanced exotic units or something, I dunno.

As for the rest of the unit slots, there are historical adventures and literary Literary would be toned down version of the Jules Verne Scenario with some other additions:

Great Ape
King Solomon's Mines
Sherlock Holmes
T Rex/Lost World
Nautilis
Journey to the Center of the Earth
Ryleh
Island of Doctor Moreau
Around the World in 80 Days
Lozenzo Cabot's Ubar of the Pillars

This historical would be grounded on this that did happen:

Mecca Gaurd
Cataphract
Icebergs
Troy Excavation.
Shackleton Expedition
The Man-Eaters of Tsavo (1907)
Grand Canyon Welsey Powell (1869)
Sven Hedin's Central Asian expedition (1897)
The roof of the World (Reaching Tibet)
Something based on On Horseback Through Asia Minor by Fred Burnaby
Stanley Livingstone
Ned Kelly
Challenger Expedition 1872
And Wild West things based on Deadwood, Tombstone or even reference the Gold Gulch scenario

But again at most paired down I've probably only got 40 slots to work with and I wanted to add in units like:
Slaves
Minor Powers infantry (Greek, Austrian, Hungarian Italian and Spanish at least)
Fortresses

I hate to ask a stupid question, but how different would the uniforms of European infantry be from 1859-1880 from what they were in the Napoleonic Wars?
Is there any of those uniforms I could get away with using in this sceanrio, at least until 1880, 1890?

I was thinking to rotate the events, once in 1890, and others in 1910 and then after the first year of the Great War. There would be a unit.gif change in the second year of the war, but it would be cosmetic.

Any advice?

EDIT: those dashes through territories represent liberation targets for different countries. Those areas will be liberated and not conquered, saving all the infrastructure. In the case of the Neutrals, it represents Iran joining the Civilized World, Mexico being liberated, etc. South America being brought under control. The exception there is Pargauy, which will have to be mercilessly conquered in the Wa of the Triple Alliance.

 

[JPetroski]

Replying from a phone so I need to be brief. Just a few quick thoughts:

1. I'd play this;
2. I like the alt history bit / Jules Verne stuff. You could really do some interesting stuff with multiple maps if you were so inclined;
3. I think you should reconsider 400+ turns. No one will ever finish it.

Good luck!

 

[Konig15]

Replying from a phone so I need to be brief. Just a few quick thoughts:

1. I'd play this;
2. I like the alt history bit / Jules Verne stuff. You could really do some interesting stuff with multiple maps if you were so inclined;
3. I think you should reconsider 400+ turns. No one will ever finish it.

Good luck!

I'd like more in-depth thoughts if you have them at this point, and when you have a chance to write them not on phone, cause that's a pain in the ass and don't always post, at least on Reddit.

How many turns do you think the scenario should have? I get the problem. Map aside one of the problems of Blitzkrieg 1936 is there's too much micromanagement from 36-39 if you want to go historical. Same issue with playing Hearts of Iron 2. If I were for example to make the game 1859-1919 and had the turns be three months it goes down to 240, and if I keep it at 6 turns per year it goes to 360.

The problem is with three months turns the ACW is only 16 turns long and that's supposed to be really epic. It's not so bad for very short wars like the Austro-Prussian War, but I wanted to drag out the Italian campaigns at least long enough to give the Neutral player a TASTE of power.

The thing about multiple maps: I'm totally willing to do them if needed. What I'm concerned about are unit limits. If I could figure out Lua and use Lua instead of unit slots for events it would take some pressure off as would figuring out how to get around the unit's limitations. The obvious solution to cut the scenario into 20-year chunks, at turn change, wipe out all event locations and then with the new rules and new events and new units, reuse the unit slots of past events. In other words, take say the Grand Canyon unit and with cycling that unit will become the Tannenburg Battle event unit once the Great War kicks off. The Grand Canyon event will only be available until 1880, then it will become something else from 1880-1910 and then the Tannenberg starting in 1910.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I ran into the number of turns problem when I was considering modifying Imperialism. Well, I knew that I wanted turns to be 8 months or a year, so that a PBEM might actually be 'finished'. But this does create a problem in that wars are very short. Consequently, there would not be much room for tactics, and there would be a very large first mover advantage.

One idea I had was to have a 'mobilization' event, where a player could choose to 'mobilize' the army, which would massively expand it, but their neighbours would mobilize as well (and a player would mobilize if attacked). Technologies and 'policy' (maybe tech, maybe improvements, maybe event choices) would determine the size of the peace time army as well as the size of the 'reserve' army, rather than just 'stockpiling' military units. But you'd also have to have some events to 'help' the defender move units around during their opponent's turn.

I suppose broadly speaking, you can have two kinds of scenarios: 'strategic' scenarios and 'tactical' scenarios.

A 'strategic' scenario has turns represent a (relatively) long time. The point is to do 'big picture' strategic things, like grow the economy, expand colonial influence, etc., and not get too hung up on the details. You don't need many 'specialist' unit types, but you may want to have more increments for basic unit types like Infantry.

A 'tactical' scenario has turns represent a short time, like a month or two. The point is to micromanage the day to day stuff. This can get tedious if most of the time is 'peace' or low level conflict. You also run into the problem where a colonial campaign that 'should' take a year or two instead takes a couple months, or trade is exploited to substantially increase the rate of technological acquisition compared to the 'year'.

Basically, in a 'strategic' WWII scenario, the Allies invade France in 1944, and invade Germany in 1945. In a 'tactical' WWII scenario, the Western Allies choose whether to invade Normandy or Pas de Calais in May or June 1944. Or, if you look at Over the Reich, the Air War is largely tactical, but the Ground War is basically strategic.

What kind of scenario do you want? If you want a 'tactical' scenario, then maybe focus on a shorter time frame and try to write events so that you can 'recycle' them for the next scenario that takes place 10 years later. If you want a 'strategic' scenario, then think of ways to model war more abstractly on a strategic level.

 

[Konig15]

I ran into the number of turns problem when I was considering modifying Imperialism. Well, I knew that I wanted turns to be 8 months or a year, so that a PBEM might actually be 'finished'. But this does create a problem in that wars are very short. Consequently, there would not be much room for tactics, and there would be a very large first mover advantage.

One idea I had was to have a 'mobilization' event, where a player could choose to 'mobilize' the army, which would massively expand it, but their neighbours would mobilize as well (and a player would mobilize if attacked). Technologies and 'policy' (maybe tech, maybe improvements, maybe event choices) would determine the size of the peace time army as well as the size of the 'reserve' army, rather than just 'stockpiling' military units. But you'd also have to have some events to 'help' the defender move units around during their opponent's turn.

I suppose broadly speaking, you can have two kinds of scenarios: 'strategic' scenarios and 'tactical' scenarios.

A 'strategic' scenario has turns represent a (relatively) long time. The point is to do 'big picture' strategic things, like grow the economy, expand colonial influence, etc., and not get too hung up on the details. You don't need many 'specialist' unit types, but you may want to have more increments for basic unit types like Infantry.

A 'tactical' scenario has turns represent a short time, like a month or two. The point is to micromanage the day to day stuff. This can get tedious if most of the time is 'peace' or low level conflict. You also run into the problem where a colonial campaign that 'should' take a year or two instead takes a couple months, or trade is exploited to substantially increase the rate of technological acquisition compared to the 'year'.

Basically, in a 'strategic' WWII scenario, the Allies invade France in 1944, and invade Germany in 1945. In a 'tactical' WWII scenario, the Western Allies choose whether to invade Normandy or Pas de Calais in May or June 1944. Or, if you look at Over the Reich, the Air War is largely tactical, but the Ground War is basically strategic.

What kind of scenario do you want? If you want a 'tactical' scenario, then maybe focus on a shorter time frame and try to write events so that you can 'recycle' them for the next scenario that takes place 10 years later. If you want a 'strategic' scenario, then think of ways to model war more abstractly on a strategic level.

If it helps, the kind of scenario I want to create has no WIN condition, it's not a stat game as we know it, it's more like an RPG. But instead of characters, this story is more about shaping the future of the world. It's essentially a five-act structure, in which cumulates in World War I.

Fallout 2 ending Slides for reference

Also because I remembered it just now, the endings for Titanic Adventure out of Time:

And yeah....the British ability to avoid World War I depends HEAVILY on an event series like this.

So why not create a new version of Le Belle Epoch and have the starting date be at the end of the Victorian era?

Well, I want RPG things:
Adventure
Choices
Consequences
Powering Up

Plus....my vision of World War I is far less about winning on the battlefield, it's about saving who you can, both in peacetime and in wartime. It's antithetical to the design of Civ games, but here, you AREN'T in control of the government, you have to produce enough influence to change policy, preferably through the research menu.

Basically I have a soft spot for the Greeks and I want to have a game where not only can you save the Balkans as historical, you CAN, at by triggering a Great War early, dismantle the Ottoman Empire and prevent the nightmarish awfulness that happened there, especially after 1878. Also, the reason why I want Japan as a faction is that the point of its inclusion is not to be the most powerful in Asia, it's to make Japan reformed enough, educated enough and economically secure enough that you bottle up the militarists in the 1920s and 30s, which aren't really playable.

And that's the point: winning is the legacy you leave behind, the condition of the baton you pass onto the next generation.

Wars are more of the denouement of all policies that came before it than dynamic in their own right. Fun but there's only so much you can do.

That's part of the reason I want adventures: because military units as few and far between outside of war events, and all have a cost. So while you're building up and trying to reform your state into a modern more or less liberal democracy.

In order of importance these are the general goals:
1. Maintaining one's self as a great power
2. Bringing economic security to the people
3. Bringing liberty to the people (for most countries this means keeping constitutional monarchies in power}
4. Supercharging the sciences (early discovery of Helium, earlier mass implementation of electrification and telephones, building a Babbage computer)
5. Bringing quality of life improvements (think color movies in the 1910s or Zepplin travel in the 1870s)

There's no right way to win exactly, just different choices.