1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[GS] Victory type elimination threads, Warmongering and the Diplo Victory

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by leandrombraz, Oct 10, 2019 at 11:56 PM.

  1. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2014
    Messages:
    850
    I didn't want to start a discussion on the elimination thread for obvious reasons, nor I want to hijack one of the other elimination threads so I'm creating my own. I want to address specifically this comment from @Lily_Lancer (idk how to properly tag someone):

    I don't mean to try to choose what others will vote for nor to dictate rules, which I'm in no position to do, I'm just trying to make a counterpoint that I think is relevant. Warmongering is OP. You can win any victory just by conquering, it's always easier to do it than to keep other Civs around and if there's no one else to compete with you in other victories, well, you won, it's just a matter of choosing how you want to trigger a victory. If we take into consideration this particular playstyle in these elimination threads, what is the point of having one thread for each victory? We can just make one for domination and be done with it, after all, you're essentially playing a domination game if you go out taking everyone down to win another victory type, the only thing that change is the victory trigger. Considering this, the Civs that have military advantages will always come on top, in any victory. For me, a diplo victory where you eliminate everyone to win the vote isn't a diplo victory. You're not playing Diplomatic, you're playing Domination then triggering a Diplomatic.

    I'll also show my last diplo game as a counterpoint to the idea that conquest might be in anyway necessary for Diplomatic victory, to reduce opponents in the congress. This was taken on the turn I won:
    289070_20191008221050_1.png

    I won before the first Diplo vote even happened (no save scumming), which probably would be in the next congress. I still had a point to unlock in the Tech tree, which I would unlock next turn, one aid request and one military aid. I lost in two resolutions, so there's two points I missed, to a total of 27 potential points before the first Diplo vote. There's a luck factor on aid request, off course, but still, I got double what I needed. If you get only one Aid request, you can still win this early, as long as you don't lose more than one resolution and you're extremely likely to get at least one. My point is that there's plenty of points available before the diplo vote becomes a thing, so that's where the diplo victory needs to be fought.

    Edit: I want to add that you don't need to win before the Diplo Vote. Since Diplo points are added before they are subtracted, all you need is to get 17 points before the first congress with a diplo vote, then win all three resolutions on that congress to get your victory. So it's even more flexible, you don't even need an aid request to win this early.

    This is the reason why I see any strategy based on late game sources of favors as a plan B and not a good plan at that. Things went wrong, so now you go full Carbon recapture and Future Civic. Same for eliminating other Civs, that's plan C or as I like to call it, the "I give up" maneuver. Based on this, for me a really strong Diplomatic Civ, top tier, is any Civ that can get an early advantage in the congress, early favors to help win normal resolutions that you can't guess. You should never base your strategy on late game because there's no late game, unless you fail miserably.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019 at 12:07 AM
  2. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Warlord

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,425
    Location:
    Berkeley,CA
    So you post a T219 standard speed screenshot? I think I have pointed out that by future Civic and elimination, DV is ensured on T205~210. (Depend on when the world enters the Classical Age).

    So you
    1: need luck for double Aid/ Military Request (This is definitely sth. about pure luck you cannot control) Also you get that luck just because you're playing with much more Civs than standard 8. On standard setting the most likely number of these requests is ZERO.

    2: Still wins at T219 (Comparably a normal diplo victory is ensured at T205~210, and other types lie no longer than T170)

    3: Consider this T219 as "no late game"?
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019 at 8:42 AM
  3. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2014
    Messages:
    850
    I hadn't read your thread, I saw it only now. You need to consider that the length of this pre-modern congress period can vary. In my game, for example, I got 5 pre-modern congresses, not 4, and it still possible to get a sixth congress since my industrial era will end in 15-35 turns. I'm 25 turns from another congress, so if it last 10 turns more than the minimum, I get another, to a total of 12 potential points in the congress before the modern era.

    Basically this isn't true since you can have more than 4 congresses before the modern era. I checked my previous games as Mali, same thing, 5 pre-modern congresses and I might get a sixth. I don't think I'm special or that I do anything different that somehow mess with the length of my eras, so I'll assume that 5 pre-modern congresses is a common occurrence, being possible to get 6.

    That's not the major flaw on your thread though. The major flaw is that you didn't take into consideration the fact that the game add diplo points first, then it subtract, which mean you can trigger the victory before it subtract. So even i you get only 4 pre-modern congresses and no aid request, which is a stretch, you can still win in the first post-modern congress if you just vote against yourself in the diplo vote and win the other two resolutions, for which there's absolutely no need for future civic or elimination, just some good read on the AI and some strong early favors. Off course, eliminating everyone makes everything easier, as I pointed out in my OP, but it's optional and won't make you win any faster compared to a player that is just good at predicting the AI and that make good use of early favors.

    It's either quick or normal, make up your mind. That is achievable but it isn't common, so I wouldn't call it normal.


    By no late game I meant without getting to that post-modern period. You should win either in the Industrial era or right at the beginning of the modern era. I won in the Industrial era on both this Hungary game and the Mali game I mentioned.
     
    Karmah likes this.
  4. KayAU

    KayAU Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2014
    Messages:
    633
    I think you are both right, in a sense...technically, conquest boosts any victory type, but I think it is not all that interesting to judge who is best at a certain victory type just by their ability to eliminate the competition. If you eliminate all but one other civ, and then trigger a diplomatic or cultural victory, well...technically, you won a diplomatic or cultural victory, but you did so through military domination.

    I think Lily pointed out a pretty major problem, though, which is how extremely detrimental the way voting works is for diplomatic victory condition. Yes, you can win it relatively early by guessing correctly in every world congress, getting all the right wonders and techs, and maybe lucking out and win a couple of emergencies. But once you have failed to do that, and you reach the late game without quite enough points, your possibility of getting a diplomatic victory is almost entirely dependent on how many civs are still alive. You can be allied with everyone, suzerain every city state, and possess several times the diplomatic favor of everyone else combined, and still lose that vote every time.
     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    9,822
    1. Own all the CS... use all the spies to destroy their envoys and use double envoy cards.
    2. Vote against yourself with a single vote, this uses up all their favour.
    You have to favour starve them.
    Ps. I hate this VC it is too long and feels wrong
     
    Troy Bruckner likes this.
  6. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Warlord

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,425
    Location:
    Berkeley,CA
    Not long actually. If you can make yourself a +2 instead of being voted -3 every time.

    ?
    It is standard speed, a typical dom victory ends around T160, a typical CV ends around T170, a typical SV ends around T170. A typical Diplo Victory ends around T205~T210.

    Now you win at T219 standard speed and say "it isn't common"?
    Yes, this is not common. Since under 99.9% of all situations you won't be winning that late. T219 extremely suprises me for it is really too late.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2019 at 8:46 AM
  7. Kwami

    Kwami Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,328
    Lily, pretty much nobody wins that quickly. Maybe less than 1% of players. Let's be reasonable, here.

    Besides, you say that a typical domination victory ends at T160 and a typical diplomacy victory ends at T210. But, then, your strategy for diplomatic victory is to kill everyone (except one) and... what, just sit around being bored for the next 50 turns? No, thanks.

    I think the OP is right. You can win any victory by killing everyone else and then doing whatever you want for 50-60 turns until you win. But, then, there's no point to these elimination games because the best military leaders will always win. How boring!
     
    TheMeInTeam and Chefofrats like this.
  8. Chefofrats

    Chefofrats Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2018
    Messages:
    194
    Location:
    Land of the Winged Hussars
    I don't play for efficiency but for the fun of empire building and most of my games end at 240-290 turns, on standard speed and world size. The "diplomatic" victory is misnamed as alliances and friendships have absolutely 0 influence on it. It is basicly a score victory, with the score awarded for objectives arbitrarily picked by the developers. I got it once and will never try it again. It should be completely reworked.
     
    Beaver79 likes this.
  9. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Warlord

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,425
    Location:
    Berkeley,CA
    I‘m not showing off my speed. In fact these speed are not quite efficient since I'm also a casual player who loves building wonders, or enjoy building up empire, etc.

    But T219 is definitely too late and nobody shall call this "no late game".
     
  10. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2014
    Messages:
    850
    With all respect, this is the most pure BS I ever seem, I'm not buying it. I'm sure people can win this early, mostly the excellent players in this forums that I know are better than me and are the elite of the elite, but you can't say with a straight face that winning at turn 170 is typical, that's the exception of the exception. If you win consistently this early, you're the exception, period. Participating on Civ forums (here, /Civ and steam), it's clear that most players win way, way, way later. 219 is far from record breaking, which I'm not claiming it to be, but I bet my Petra that the majority of Civ players win several turns later, closer to the 280-320 turns range. Winning on turn 170 is in no way a common experience among Civ players. Compared to your typical Civ player, 219 is early and in no way a surprise for being too late.

    • Domination victory can vary considerably based on the size and type of the map, and amount of Civs in the game. I doubt people can consistently win at turn 160 against 12 Civs. Even if you start conquering early and do it ridiculously efficiently, units movement just don't allow this to be pulled off that easily. Possible? Yeah. Typical? No way, no. That certainly is more consistent on smaller maps and even then I doubt that it's a typical experience among Civ players. By your logic, I could clan that winning domination on turn 20 is typical, because that is certainly doable on a dual map. turn 160 extremely surprises me for it is really too late;
    • You didn't mention Religious but you can win ridiculously early consistently, though it's also affected by map and amount of Civs, same as domination. It's easier to pull off a victory in the 160-170 range compared to domination but it still not typical;
    • Cultural is the easiest to win this quick consistently and if we had access to telemetry data, it's probably the victory that most players win the earliest but still not typical and it require specific early tourism strategies. A player just playing cultural normally, without trying to break any records, just won't win this early, unless the AI fails hard on getting domestic tourists;
    • Scientific is the one that I'm the most skeptical. You might do it with a Civ that is really good at it and that can progress absurdly fast in the tech tree but I seriously doubt winning it on turn 170 is typical even among the elite of the elite. Pics or it didn't happen;
    • As for Diplo victory, your notion of how it works seems to be extremely theoretical and not really matching with how it actually works. I recommend you to actually play it before you establish your civilopedia based estimative as a typical Diplo Victory.

    Anyway, my point wasn't to show how early I won, I'm not trying to brag about how quick I can win, my point was to show that there's a lot of room to win before you get to that post-modern congress phase and that any Diplo strategy should focus on pre-modern.


    Yeah but that's the point, a Civ that generate more favors early, either by having an advantage with City-States or by having abilities that generate favors directly, will be better suited to avoid failure when it's crucial to succeed, to avoid late game stagnation. If you do fail early, then you might want to start considering conquest as an option to speed up your game, but before that it's hardly needed. It's easy to predict the AI in some resolutions and resolutions have a tendency to repeat, with the AI having an equal tendency to vote again on the same options. Any resolution that you can't predict you win with favors. It's also common for the AI to use only one vote and rare to invest all their favors, so you can do a safe estimation of how much votes you need to win. 12 votes is often enough against 11 AIs. As the game progresses, your advantage over the AI increases and it gets easier and easier to guarantee that you gonna win the resolutions. My last vote on this game I had around 4000 favors, more than enough to vote blindly on both resolutions and win comfortably.
     
  11. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Warlord

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,425
    Location:
    Berkeley,CA
    But you're debating against my strategy. For me, 140 may be a rare thing but 170 is a typical winning time. You can say that you play on large map where Domination takes more time, however SV takes less time (for there're more CSs), so under your setting a typical winning time is still around 170 if not less.

    My point is that, you cannot claim "oh I'm better than an average Civ player so my strategy is best." There's a large gap between better than average and best. My strategy is not best but is definitely better than yours, since it wins much more quickly and also don't rely on luck. So your strategy basically makes no sense.
     
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    9,822
    he can, if you play and really concentrate on your victory you can but you have to willing to play the key strategies very well to do so,
     
  13. Civ Chemist

    Civ Chemist Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2019
    Messages:
    17
    Gender:
    Male
    I would really like to see how one can get there reliably. I've won around T160 with Hungary, but that was basically a domination victory, where I conquered all but 1 civ. I can win a peaceful SV around T200 but I don't seen how I can reliably shave off another 30 turns. I guess you have to hit every golden age and get a strong early faith economy to take advantage of monumentality. Are there any guides out there?
     
  14. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2014
    Messages:
    850
    I'm debating specifically against the notion that you need to eliminate other Civs to win Diplo early and that you need a post-modern congress to win, specifically that you need to win the diplo vote, which would be the only reason to eliminate other Civs and rely on future civics. There's no need to eliminate other Civs, it's overkill and doing so won't make you win faster than a player who votes well, which isn't luck since there's a clean pattern to how the AI votes. You won't win quicker with your strategy, your calculation is based on a estimative of how much an era last that is just wrong since the duration of an era vary a lot. You can't guarantee that you gonna get a post-modern congress after 4 pre-moderns. If you get a fifth pre-modern, you can get only 2 points on it, so you still rely on either getting an Aid Request or wait another 30 turns for a congress to get that last point. Your estimative is wrong. You can win diplo long before turn 219, if you get luck with aid requests or a fast modern era. On top of that, conquering give you grievances, which give you a favors penalty and each Civ you eliminate is one less Civ that might trigger an Aid Request, so by focusing on conquest you're working against yourself to gain an unnecessary advantage in the congress. It's counterproductive, specially because of the grievances penalty. If you can't counter the penalty fast enough by becoming suzerain of City-States, you risk being on negative favor per turn or just too low to matter, which will make it harder for you to win in the congress while you're in the process of eliminating other Civs. It gets worse before it gets better, worse enough that it might deny the advantage you seek and make you lose some precious early diplo points. Try your strategy, do it with Shaka, see how it goes.

    I'm not claiming that I'm better than the average player, I'm not claiming anything about my own skills. What I'm talking about here isn't just a strategy, it's how the Diplo victory works, how it need to be fought pre-modern. It's not a matter of better or worse. I didn't mean to bash on your strategy, though I ended up doing it, I didn't even read your thread before I posted this, otherwise I would have commented there directly. My point was just that warmongering is OP and not a good way to judge how good a Civ is outside of a domination victory, since winning another victory by conquering everyone is essentially a domination game with a different victory trigger. That's the only reason I quoted your comment on the elimination thread.
     
  15. Leucarum

    Leucarum Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2018
    Messages:
    364
    Gender:
    Male
    The fact that lily_lancer is right about the optimal approach really shows that the DV is not ever an optimal strategy as it's currently implemented.

    If you win it by eliminating everyone bar one person, then frankly why wait around when you could just win a domination victory already? The fact that it's time gated sets it apart from each other victory type bar score victory and honestly for optimal play should it really be considered to exist at all?
     
  16. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    24,991
    It's a fundamental design flaw + inconsistency in the Civ franchise. If everyone in the game is trying to win, the game defaults to military. If you win militarily, nobody else can attain non-military VCs.

    At BEST, other VCs serve as a means to break a stalemate or let people vote on a winner to save some turns.
     
  17. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Warlord

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,425
    Location:
    Berkeley,CA

    Civ6 is such a game that

    Dom V relies on Science
    Science V relies on Culture
    Culture V relies on Faith
    Religious V relies on Diplo
    Diplo V relies on Domination

    If you want SV, remember that culture is the most important part. (at least on standard speed or slower)
     
  18. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    Messages:
    173
    Gender:
    Male
    I think you're really good at this game and think you bring an interesting perspective to a lot of topics, but come on... those are not "typical" victory numbers. Possible, sure, but not at all "typical".

    Most of us don't play optimally. I freely admit it.
     
  19. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Warlord

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,425
    Location:
    Berkeley,CA
    These are typical numbers. Sure. If I say 140 I cannot do that of course except for extremely good maps, but 170, Huh. You know, 30 Turns means a lot.
     
  20. kryat

    kryat Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2017
    Messages:
    504
    Gender:
    Male
    To respond to the OP of this thread: your thoughts were some concerns I had thought about addressing in the intro to the DV thread. You are absolutely correct that domination is one of, if not the, most effective way to win any victory type. However, I believed that most people participating would take it in good faith to understand that it means winning a game without egregious warmongering in the spirit of how civs and leaders were seemingly designed to be played. And so far, that’s largely played out.

    I’ve noticed as well that some new players report these community threads (like the former elimination threads and civ of the week threads) have been useful for learning how a range of experienced players may approach thinking about the strategy of the game. In example, in a SV thread, one might imagine the underlying questions slowly being worked out by consensus could include things like, “Which is more useful, science or production?”, or “Are more builder charges more important than a science-yielding improvement?”

    I’m not going to advocate for restricting people to answering without considering egregious warmongering though. It’s up to the players to decide how to play.
     
    Victoria and leandrombraz like this.

Share This Page