[NFP] Vietnam Discussion Thread
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Duke William of Normandy
King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee
Alexander and Shaka. Maybe...
SammyKhalifa
Deity
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Yeah, it's not a master strategy or anything but I kind of want to wall all my cities and goad someone into attacking just so I can shoot them with all my camps.
Josephias
Emperor
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After @DogeEnricoDandolo comments on the last days and seeing the overall boost to defensive strenght the LUA provides I kind of had a crackpot idea where the Thành would not provide defensive capabilities (at least that it will lose the defensive shoot). This would make them somewhat counter-oppidium: an encampment that does not work like a full encampment, but that on the other hand works for your culture game (and still provides XP to units and other encampment benefits)
speaking of kongo, if vietnam captures a kongolese city with a mbanza district (which would become a neighborhood in woods) and then builds a shopping mall or food market, will it also get +1 culture?not that itd matter at that point in the game lol
Nope, Neighbourhoods are no speciality districts
We speculated this may be the case as the district placement screen does not show the red warning saying you will remove the feature, as for other civis.
Err... not that a big stretch, and posting this image in a Vietnam thread is maybe not going that off topic
Ticio
Prince
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Uf! I'm not sure! even Shaka would be in troubles! I think there is not an actual Civ that could be a counter to them on the military...
Lord Lakely
Idea Fountain
Anything that tries to win through culture. The Achilles heel to all cultural Civs is being conquered by a more menacing, technologically advanced neighbour and having their Culture train derailed before the terminus. The Thahn boosts defence while simultaneously providing a steady trickle of culture and tourism.
Their natural enemy appears to be Gaul. Gaul is likewise strong defensively and culturally, but has the production Vietnam lacks, meaning they can pump out soldiers and wonders. Vietnam looks like they may outtourism Gaul though, if they place their Thahns right. +12 Tourism in the endgame is stronger than most World Wonders.
As far as friends go. Kupe is going to wet himself when he meets them.
SammyKhalifa
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Err... not that a big stretch, and posting this image in a Vietnam thread is maybe not going that off topic
Aww this is more fun though.
They'll struggle on the offense against a civ like Scythia or Nubia who is based in open terrain.
But I mean, if they have a warrior on a forested hill in their territory, that's a +16 bonus to the unit before even looking at river/fortifications. They can still be defeated with overwhelming force, but they're not a civ I will try to invade at even numbers.
Kmart_Elvis
King
What about a high-faith civ like Ethiopia or Russia that can afford to send wave after wave of soothsayers to start fires in their lands?
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Andrew Johnson [FXS]
Prince
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So! A word about the use of Thăng Long as the capital.
The early history of Vietnam is complicated, and is bound up in Chinese history as well. During the fall of the Qin dynasty, a Qin loyalist set up a semi-independent kingdom of "Nan Yue" in the area of southern China and northern Vietnam. The name means "southern Yue", which then begs the question... who are the Yue? The word - rendered "Việt" in Vietnamese - meant something like "peoples beyond the boundary". i.e. the people outside of the Chinese empire. Combined with "Nam" or "Nan" - "south", and the meaning is obvious. So who were these people? The name indicates a multi-ethnic group of people, including speakers of Vietnamese, Tai, Lac, Cantonese, Hokkien, Teochieu, and other languages. "Yue language" is still a term used to describe the Chinese dialect in Guangdong. Additionally, the territory that Nanyue occupied was mostly in present-day China. Nanyue was eventually conquered by the Han Dynasty, and a process of Sinification started.
It was against this process that rebels in many places emerged, but the Trưng sisters and Triệu were (obviously) both in the area of northern Vietnam and have thus become Vietnamese folk heroes.
So here's the question. What's Triệu's capital? Her military camp was hardly a city, and Hanoi didn't exist at the time. So what to go for?
We originally thought to go for Hanoi, just to be recognizable, but it seemed to put a heavy focus on more modern-day Vietnam when we wanted an older feel. We especially did not want Vietnam to be reduced to an "American experience in Vietnam" trope. With that in mind, Thăng Long was just too attractive of a name ("rising dragon") and a historical period. So there's a slight anachronism here - we could not have an appropriate capital for Triệu (as she was not the ruler of a city), nor could we use Nanyue city lists (as most of those would overlap with China), and, besides, during Triệu's life the entire country was occupied, so we went for the next available option - city names and locations as of the first real moment of an independent Vietnamese kingdom (and, further down the city list, later cities extending to the south).
Finally, diacritics were important. The word "thanh," for instance, is not the same as the word "thành". While there are fully Romanized spelling conventions, we thought to keep the Vietnamese spelling to preserve the feel of each city.
The early history of Vietnam is complicated, and is bound up in Chinese history as well. During the fall of the Qin dynasty, a Qin loyalist set up a semi-independent kingdom of "Nan Yue" in the area of southern China and northern Vietnam. The name means "southern Yue", which then begs the question... who are the Yue? The word - rendered "Việt" in Vietnamese - meant something like "peoples beyond the boundary". i.e. the people outside of the Chinese empire. Combined with "Nam" or "Nan" - "south", and the meaning is obvious. So who were these people? The name indicates a multi-ethnic group of people, including speakers of Vietnamese, Tai, Lac, Cantonese, Hokkien, Teochieu, and other languages. "Yue language" is still a term used to describe the Chinese dialect in Guangdong. Additionally, the territory that Nanyue occupied was mostly in present-day China. Nanyue was eventually conquered by the Han Dynasty, and a process of Sinification started.
It was against this process that rebels in many places emerged, but the Trưng sisters and Triệu were (obviously) both in the area of northern Vietnam and have thus become Vietnamese folk heroes.
So here's the question. What's Triệu's capital? Her military camp was hardly a city, and Hanoi didn't exist at the time. So what to go for?
We originally thought to go for Hanoi, just to be recognizable, but it seemed to put a heavy focus on more modern-day Vietnam when we wanted an older feel. We especially did not want Vietnam to be reduced to an "American experience in Vietnam" trope. With that in mind, Thăng Long was just too attractive of a name ("rising dragon") and a historical period. So there's a slight anachronism here - we could not have an appropriate capital for Triệu (as she was not the ruler of a city), nor could we use Nanyue city lists (as most of those would overlap with China), and, besides, during Triệu's life the entire country was occupied, so we went for the next available option - city names and locations as of the first real moment of an independent Vietnamese kingdom (and, further down the city list, later cities extending to the south).
Finally, diacritics were important. The word "thanh," for instance, is not the same as the word "thành". While there are fully Romanized spelling conventions, we thought to keep the Vietnamese spelling to preserve the feel of each city.
fy00sh
Nonbinary | Peaceful Builder
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oh i see how it is, pedantry war it is then!
the problem is, nowhere in any of vietnam's CUA or trieu's LUA is a blanket permission granted to all districts to be built on features (not counting floodplains and volcanic soil), so presumably by default districts can't be built on features (not counting floodplains and volcanic soil) just like everyone else. the only exception listed is that land specialty districts are restricted to rainforest, marsh, and woods (interestingly, it's never directly stated that those features wont be removed - that's only implied). thus, specialty land dictricts MUST go on rainforest, woods, or marsh; whereas districts that are nonspecialty and/or nonland districts can't be put on features other than floodplains or volcanic soil without first removing the feature, just like for every other civ.
also @Josephias those buildings might still get the +1 culture. the wording of the CUA is:
This seems to show that, although Vietnam can't normally get a neighborhood on woods, if they did its building would get the +1 Culture
edit: also, i just realised, Mbanza districts are also buildable on rainforest. If vietnam captured one of those, you could get a neighborhood district with a +1 science building, assuming theres no additional hidden rules not laid out in the CUA text
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Ticio
Prince
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Indeed! I was thinking the same during the video. Vietnam will suffer on apocalypse mode
I was wondering more who could open this beautiful turtle in frontal assault.
I suppose that any civ with science is better, as dropping nuclear bombs and radiating all their marshes and forets could work....
Wielki Hegemon
Emperor
But this one you have is very niceOh, I think I will have a new avatar coming up soon!
Bug Repellent
Chieftain
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Pretty mediocre civ, to be honest. IMHO all civs centered around defensive bonuses are bad civs. If you're a turtle civ like Vietnam is, you need to win with culture, science, faith or diplo. The problem is, if you are at peace, your defensive bonuses do nothing to move you along the win path chosen. I can turtle in with any civ with not that much effort, to be honest. With Vietnam, you'll build an encampment that doesn't help you much during peace times (yes, the theoretical +12 culture seems nice but you need population and production to get there and she's not good at either), you have a civ ability that again gives you nothing during peace time and also a supposedly good crossbow replacement that also doesn't give you anything in peace times. Medieval Fairies comes way too late to make a difference, in my opinion. You'll be restricted placing districts for the first 100 turns which is unacceptable. To get a good campus I need either lots of rainforests or a wooded tile surrounded by mountains. Too situational to work consistently for 12-16 cities. Same with IZ and Commercial hubs. I always chop woods and rainforests before placing a district which on the upside gives you production and extra population even though it requires a builder charge. Even with Medieval Faeries you need to spend a builder charge to plant woods simply to place a district (instead of getting some prod from chopping). Not a big fan and I think district placement restrictions will make Vietnam a pretty frustrating civ to play. Especially during the first 100 turns when you can't plant woods but you need to expand in non wooded areas. Overall opinion: Meh.
The agenda seems like overkill considering there's already grievances for declaring war. Also perhaps in the past it been true in the past but Vietnam has a very positive diplomatic relationship with the united states and the war wasn't that long ago.
Duke William of Normandy
King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee
But this is the Agenda of Lady Trieu with a temper, not Vietnam, right?
Josephias
Emperor
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Indeed! I was thinking the same during the video. Vietnam will suffer on apocalypse mode
Heh, Apocalypse Now is not yet used as a civilization VI achievement, is it?
(only thing, it would require yow to have two NFP DLC to get it, so I see it dificult to be "play Apocalypse mode as Vietnam")
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