I think greater line of sight exists in the code, but I'm not quite sure how valuable it would be in a city. Can't you already see anything adjacent to your cultural borders? I love using Adventurer units as my medics for the +1 sight range in a stack, but I'm not sure how good it is transferred over to cities.
Vokarya's Workshop: Buildings
- Thread starter Vokarya
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I think one building is enough, especially because the Shipyard chain requires an appropriate Port, so you're looking at two levels of building before you can even start building warships. There is a narrow window in the Renaissance where you can found a city with a Colonist and it starts with a Harbor, which is sufficient for a Shipyard, but once you get to steamships, you have to build a Seaport and then a Drydock, and Drydocks are pretty unattractive for a new city unless you need naval ships right away.
I found some more unnecessary modifiers on existing buildings that I think we should trim.
International Port: This has -1 happiness. I really don't think it needs this. It also gives -4 health, which I think could come down a bit. My current experience on Noble is that health and unhealth are pretty well in balance throughout the Industrial Era and into the early Modern. I'd like to tone down the health numbers on some buildings, like City Park and Hospital, but I don't feel we can do that safely unless we reduce some of the unhealth as well. International Port seems like a good place to start. I did notice that in BTS, there are NO buildings that have innate unhappiness, so I'd prefer to save building unhappiness for buildings that need it. International Port is not one of them.
Arcology, Arcology Shield: These give culture which I don't think they need to do. By this point, there are so many other culture sources available that this just feels unnecessary. (I'm not quite sure I like Walls giving culture either, but I can understand that as the presence of civilization in the wilderness.)
International Port: This has -1 happiness. I really don't think it needs this. It also gives -4 health, which I think could come down a bit. My current experience on Noble is that health and unhealth are pretty well in balance throughout the Industrial Era and into the early Modern. I'd like to tone down the health numbers on some buildings, like City Park and Hospital, but I don't feel we can do that safely unless we reduce some of the unhealth as well. International Port seems like a good place to start. I did notice that in BTS, there are NO buildings that have innate unhappiness, so I'd prefer to save building unhappiness for buildings that need it. International Port is not one of them.
Arcology, Arcology Shield: These give culture which I don't think they need to do. By this point, there are so many other culture sources available that this just feels unnecessary. (I'm not quite sure I like Walls giving culture either, but I can understand that as the presence of civilization in the wilderness.)
Here is another anomaly. Hospital + Organ Bank gives just as much health and slightly better overall unit healing than Regenerator. Hospital is +5/+25%, and Organ Bank is +2/+20%, while Regenerator is +7/+40%, although Regenerator does heal 3 units per turn to full. Organ Bank grows and stores organs for transplantation, while Regenerator replaces any organ in the body, so I think it would be appropriate for Regenerator to replace it as well.
How this would play out here is that we should reduce Organ Bank to +10% unit healing, then have Regenerator replace all of Hospital, Organ Bank, and Pharmacy. This means Regenerator's health would be +5 (from Hospital) +2 (from Organ Bank) + 3 (from Pharmacy with Chemicals) +2 for the upgrade to bring it to +12. I know I said I wanted the numbers to come down, but this is compiling three separate buildings into one, so its numbers are going to be high. If Hospital could come down, then Regenerator could probably drop a couple of points.
How this would play out here is that we should reduce Organ Bank to +10% unit healing, then have Regenerator replace all of Hospital, Organ Bank, and Pharmacy. This means Regenerator's health would be +5 (from Hospital) +2 (from Organ Bank) + 3 (from Pharmacy with Chemicals) +2 for the upgrade to bring it to +12. I know I said I wanted the numbers to come down, but this is compiling three separate buildings into one, so its numbers are going to be high. If Hospital could come down, then Regenerator could probably drop a couple of points.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Sounds good to me if you want to reduce healthiness and unhealthiness at the same time as you proposed. I'm still considering/testing what to do with units upgrading. I like your suggestion about ships but I don't want to totally cripple navies. Also, I'm experimenting with 2.5x and 3x increased units costs. I have to reduce slightly techs costs to compensate for slower tech pace caused by more time needed for units training rather than research (including buildings production which affects research and gold, hence ultimately research times).
The problem with reducing health on Industrial Era buildings is that I feel I need to reduce unhealth from buildings by just as much because health seems to be so tight right there, and I'd love to cut a point off all of Hospital (currently +5), Water Treatment Plant (also currently +5), and City Park (currently +3). If we reduce International Port to -3, I feel safe in cutting one point off of Water Treatment Plant.
This would make Water Treatment Plant +4: +1 from Aqueduct, +1 from Artesian Well, +2 for the upgrade makes +4. Then I can bring Waste Digester down from +10 to +8: +4 from Water Treatment Plant, +2 from Sewer System, +2 for the upgrade.
I also want to give Radar Station an upgrade path; it's one of the rare "orphan" buildings without one. I looked through the Transhuman Era buildings and I think Radar Station overlaps enough with Security Center that the SC can be an upgrade of the Radar Station as well as the Security Bureau. Both Radar Station and Security Center have air-damage reduction, so I think we can safely increase Security Center's air defense to -35% and still have it be less than the current -50% from RS+SC. (I also considered Control Center, but I think the Security Center works better here.)
I really love that idea to reduce fog of war. Radar Stations, totally, that's what they really do. And why not carry it along the upgrade path? Security Center, that's about intelligence. Eventually we mean spy satellites operated by security bureaus. That's all about seeing what your rivals are up to.
ZOC, shouldn't Star Fort inherit that from Castle Moat? I think buildings on an upgrade/obsolescence chain should absorb the traits/bonuses of earlier buildings. Besides a fort outside the city does ZOC, funny that a fort within the city does not.
One building I've often wanted, would exert ZOC on adjacent water tiles. This is Coastal Artillery, used to deny enemy ships passage. Example Gibraltar. I think we've all played on maps where we could use that. I don't know if a building can do ZOC like a ship, but the mechanic would work much better than Opportunity Fire. Also, those guns were always fixed in place.
...or perhaps have both land and sea ZOC from the same building - I doubt you can find any fort built on the coast that wasn't primarily aimed against shipping.
ZOC, shouldn't Star Fort inherit that from Castle Moat? I think buildings on an upgrade/obsolescence chain should absorb the traits/bonuses of earlier buildings. Besides a fort outside the city does ZOC, funny that a fort within the city does not.
One building I've often wanted, would exert ZOC on adjacent water tiles. This is Coastal Artillery, used to deny enemy ships passage. Example Gibraltar. I think we've all played on maps where we could use that. I don't know if a building can do ZOC like a ship, but the mechanic would work much better than Opportunity Fire. Also, those guns were always fixed in place.
...or perhaps have both land and sea ZOC from the same building - I doubt you can find any fort built on the coast that wasn't primarily aimed against shipping.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
This is getting more tricky than expected. Raising units costs is affecting which kind of units are being trained. I had to slightly modify the production function in the dll because AI is producing almost no naval units probably because AI thinks it needs a larger army before building a fleet. I'm running some test with this change.
I have tried a game with iCost in the unit info xml multiplied by 4. I found it pretty good. It seemed that the barb cities where pretty weak, as it took them a long time to start producing more units. When they became minor cives they became pretty strong. In the early game it seemed easier to keep up with the AI in power, once into the classical era it seemed as hard as it always was to pay for an army powerful enough to handle what the AI can field. I have only got to the early classical. The big difference is the cost / benefit of caravans. I feel that they are generally overpowered and are the only thing that allows me to pay for a reasonable army. With costs multiplied by 4 they are pretty much useless.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
No other changes than unit costs? Because I've autoplayed many test games now and I've noticed AI almost doesn't build a navy anymore, and that's with 2.5 multiplier. Also, are you playing with revolution? Because I've noticed that in this case rebels are much harder to defeat, hence increasing total number of civs and creating lots of 1-2 cities civs which stay backward and preventing larger AI from being able to develop enough to discover all techs before the last turn. This is a serious issue to me because it makes late eras boring and easier.
No other changes. I think I have increased the cost of all units except possibly settlers. I play with human flexible difficulty on and AI flexible difficulty off, started at immortal, dropped down to noble then increased and got to Deity towards the end of the ancient era. It seems to me that the strong AI's are doing pretty well and present a challenge, and got to the classical era early (well before 2000 BC). I shall see how the rest of the game goes, I should have time over the weekend to get some way into it.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Just a quick thought about Aqueduct and Artesian Well: Do we really want them to produce +1
? I mean they already produce fresh water which also means bonus health, right? Of course, I can accept it as "More fresh water is healthier" but if you want to cut down on health a bit, then it may be a good start.
Again: Just an idea.
? I mean they already produce fresh water which also means bonus health, right? Of course, I can accept it as "More fresh water is healthier" but if you want to cut down on health a bit, then it may be a good start.Again: Just an idea.
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
You get from Fresh Water? Interesting. Had no idea.
from Fresh Water? Interesting. Had no idea.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
IIRC if a city is nearby a river or a fresh water lake than among theYou get
sources it also mentions +1 from fresh water. Or does my memory fail me?EDIT: No, I was right: Fresh water (Civ4)
So if you build both Aqueduct and Artesian Well (and had no fresh water already in city) then you get +4
I don't say it's bad, but do we need it?
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The problem with cutting the health bonus is that fresh water bonuses are not cumulative. A city that already has fresh water will get only +1 health from the Aqueduct and +1 health from the Artesian Well. That's why I had the health bonus: without the health bonus, the Aqueduct/Artesian Well are useless for a city with fresh water but still appear on the build list, so they are dead builds. There's no XML tag for "hide this building if city has fresh water".
I definitely want to keep the +1 on Artesian Well, but I have thought about the Aqueduct. If Aqueduct upgraded to Artesian Well, instead of both upgrading to Water Treatment Plant, then we could either have Aqueduct with no health and it's a dead building for a city with fresh water but disappears from the build lists once you reach Invention, or Aqueduct with +1 health, but then Artesian Well is a dead building for a city with an Aqueduct. OR we reverse it; instead of Aqueduct upgrading to Artesian Well, Aqueduct keeps the +1 health and Artesian Well upgrades to Aqueduct; a city eligible for an Aqueduct wouldn't need an Artesian Well, but a city that can't build an Aqueduct due to lack of terrain in vicinity can still get a Well.
Also, AND fresh water is only worth +1 health. There's a global variable that controls it, so editing the XML is all it takes to change the benefit.
I definitely want to keep the +1 on Artesian Well, but I have thought about the Aqueduct. If Aqueduct upgraded to Artesian Well, instead of both upgrading to Water Treatment Plant, then we could either have Aqueduct with no health and it's a dead building for a city with fresh water but disappears from the build lists once you reach Invention, or Aqueduct with +1 health, but then Artesian Well is a dead building for a city with an Aqueduct. OR we reverse it; instead of Aqueduct upgrading to Artesian Well, Aqueduct keeps the +1 health and Artesian Well upgrades to Aqueduct; a city eligible for an Aqueduct wouldn't need an Artesian Well, but a city that can't build an Aqueduct due to lack of terrain in vicinity can still get a Well.
Also, AND fresh water is only worth +1 health. There's a global variable that controls it, so editing the XML is all it takes to change the benefit.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
That's exactly what I meant: If a city already has fresh water (lake or river) what benefit is there to have even more? Providing fresh water in a city not having it is always beneficial for farm irrigation even without a health bonus.
I think a new XML tag (RequreNoFrewhWater) would be beneficial so you could have only a natural source of FW, an Aqueduct or an Artesian Well and than cut the health bonus from those buildings. Just an idea.
I think a new XML tag (RequreNoFrewhWater) would be beneficial so you could have only a natural source of FW, an Aqueduct or an Artesian Well and than cut the health bonus from those buildings. Just an idea.
Are there any civic buildings that anyone thinks really need to obsolete? As I said elsewhere, I think that the functional obsolescence of a civic is enough of a check on civic buildings that the buildings don't need to go obsolete on their own via techs. Agora is the only one that seems strong, and I think in that case we should scale it down a little. Otherwise, it isn't really a negative if you can't build the building due to civics long before it goes obsolete due to tech.
The one thing that I would like to do is create an upgrade chain from Polis Council to District Office/Provincial Hall (increasing both of their maintenance reductions by 5%) and then having District Office/Provincial Hall upgrade to Voting Link. Polis Council and Voting Link are Rule civic buildings, while District Office/Provincial Hall are Government civic buildings.
The one thing that I would like to do is create an upgrade chain from Polis Council to District Office/Provincial Hall (increasing both of their maintenance reductions by 5%) and then having District Office/Provincial Hall upgrade to Voting Link. Polis Council and Voting Link are Rule civic buildings, while District Office/Provincial Hall are Government civic buildings.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Maybe an upgrade in this case would be nice. Salon would be an excellent upgrade if it wasn't a French UB
Maybe it could be replaced with Chateau (from Civ5).
No. IMO, it's really not a good idea to have cross-civic upgrade lines, especially not cross-category upgrade lines.
A civic building upgrading to to another in its own civic or to a regular building is okay but I find your idea confusing.
The slave market seems pretty powerfull, if you can deal with the instability. I have not played the later eras much, but I tend to only change out of slavery as I approach or get Labor Union, and if this did not obsolete I could see staying in slavery for a long time.
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