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Vokarya's Workshop: Buildings

Discussion in 'Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn' started by Vokarya, Sep 21, 2013.

  1. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    Other things on Foundry -> Factory.

    I'm going to increase Factory to -4 health. It's one point worse than Foundry (-2) plus Tannery (-1) and it also gives additional unhealth from Coal and Oil.

    Foundry's Engineer slot also has to go somewhere, but I don't want it to go on Factory because Factory already has 2 slots. I'm going to give it to Skyscraper. This makes the specialist slot distribution, at the tail end of the Industrial Era, go from what is now Forge/Townclock/Foundry/2x Factory/Construction Firm all the way to 2x Factory/2x Construction Firm/Arsenal/Skyscraper. (Forge and Foundry are replaced by Factory, Townclock is replaced by Skyscraper. Cannon Forge/Arsenal give 1 Engineer slot through the Renaissance, and Construction Firm gets a second Engineer slot.)
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  2. jackelgull

    jackelgull An aberration of nature

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    Engineers are rare enough that I don't see this becoming a problem. I mean once you hit 20,000 research points a turn, their bulbing function becomes practically worthless, but their rushing production ability will always be useful thus always making the choice between "Do I want +50% production in a city or to finish this wonder" difficult.
     
  3. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    I think that way too. Each Great Engineer is effectively a World Wonder in a can, although it can take 2 or more to build really expensive wonders in small cities. So if the game is still competitive at that point, I think it's better to save them for Wonders.
     
  4. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    Because I was too lazy to do it until now. But I'll do it in the next build.

    I will also have all Power Plants upgrade to Matter Decompiler (except of course for the Fusion Plant). You don't need any of them providing power if you have an MD, which not only provides power but also +1 happiness and negates unhealth from buildings. To build a Matter Decompiler, you have to build a Utility Fog first, so if you stay away from UF, MD will not appear. UF has the meltdown risk, so it may not be appropriate to build in every city.

    The question I have in looking at this is where Fusion Plant should come in as far as replacing existing power plants. Right now it replaces Coal-Oil. I'm not sure about Nuclear here. I want to leave some plants available for building if you don't want to waste one of your Fusion Plants. Definitely Solar and Hydro, and I probably will keep Nuclear available. The dirty plants should be unavailable as long as you have a Fusion Plant waiting in the wings.
     
  5. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    While we're at it, is there a better place for Apiary to merge into another building before Hydroponic Farm? It would be an even trade for whatever building gets the upgrade to get either Apiary's +1 food/+2 commerce or a flat +2 food. That's what I'm looking at if we go Apiary -> HF -> Farmscraper.

    I was looking at "survivors" -- buildings that don't upgrade -- and I noticed that Apiary is just about the only one in the Ancient Era that needs attention. I think we talked about this before. I'm not expecting civic buildings, corporate stores, or religious buildings to upgrade, but there are still a few odd ones left. Science buildings seem to be very prone to this. Library, University, Museum, and Observatory are all pre-Industrial buildings with no upgrade path.
     
  6. Tolni

    Tolni trust the pillars with your s e c r e t s

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    I thought there was a Library->University chain?
     
  7. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    That's a requirement chain, not an upgrade. Upgrades do a better job of keeping the building list under control without being heavy-handed about it, either through buildings going obsolete or making players jump through hoops of multiple required buildings. I used to hate having to build Stable to get Knight's Stable.
     
  8. Fozman

    Fozman Chieftain

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    My suggestions for this would be Grocer/Supermarket or Food Processing Plant.
     
  9. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    That wouldn't work for me. There are food production buildings, and there are food distribution buildings. You can further subdivide the food procedures into the direct producers, the producing assistants, and the processors. Direct producers include the Hydroponic Farm and Farmscraper. Assistants would be the Irrigation Canals. Most buildings would fall under the processors category, including Butchery, Bakery, Cannery, and Food Processing Plant. Distributors would be Grocer and Supermarket.

    Apiary is somewhere between a direct producer and an assistant. It produces honey, but it also helps food crops grow by pollination. Direct producers would be flat +food; assistants should be some kind of bonus to improvements; processors and distributors should be a % bonus. However, Apiary is too small to fine-grain that way. I also definitely want to keep Apiary viable up until the Industrial Era. It's a great early build for new cities.
     
  10. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    Pursuant to what I said above about food distributors, what about giving Grocer and Supermarket +% food bonuses? Like this:
    • Grocer loses the flat +1 food and the commerce bonuses and gains +10% food.
    • Supermarket loses the flat +2 food and the commerce bonuses and gains +10% food, plus an additional +10% with Power. So if you upgrade a Grocer to a Supermarket, you get an immediate bonus in health from meat resources, but you have to power the city to get a food bonus.
    • MallWart Store gets affected similarly, but loses the % commerce bonus with resources.
    • Hypermarket loses the flat +2 good and gains +10% food, plus an additional +15% with Power. This is a slight bonus over Supermarket.
     
  11. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    Some revised numbers for production buildings in the late game. I like the Factory - Manufacturing Plant - Nanofactory chain.
    • Factory is sitting at +50%/+35% with power, for a total of +85% production if powered. Factory is inheriting all of Forge/Foundry/Tannery, so it needs to be relatively high.
    • Manufacturing Plant is increased from its current +40% with power only to +50%, +75% with power (total +125%). This is a straight add of Factory's proposed bonuses and Mfg Plant's proposed bonuses.
    • Nanofactory is increased to +50%, +150% with power, total +200%. This is only +50% over the combination of Manufacturing Plant + Industrial Robots.
    Omnifactory stays where it is. I want the Omnifactory to be a big bonus, so its +350% covers the +200% from Nanofactory, and the +50% from Advanced Quality Control. I do think it should upgrade most of the Craft wonders.

    The German Assembly Plant is an issue here. Its "UB abilities" are +2 Engineer slots and 50% faster production of itself (not its production after completion) with Coal. I don't think it's a good thing for the Assembly Plant to survive, and some of its abilities can't be removed without removing the whole thing. If we give the Assembly Plant +50% construction of Manufacturing Plant as well, would that be enough to keep it a valid UB?

    I also have to decide where the Engineer slots from Factory are going. I haven't decided that yet.
     
  12. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    I think it's a good idea if Ironworks is no longer a NW but can only be built by a Great Engineer. This way there is no problem with wonder slot limits and is also more interesting to get Steel resource:
    • via Steelmill if you have Coal and Iron OR
    • via Ironworks if you sacrifice a Great Engineer


    That should be just the other way: Lose their UB specific bonus at some point so it will always make sense to upgrade them.
    Iron Forge gives +:food: and Mint gives +:commerce:, right? Seeing a "forge" in a trans-human era city with no production bonus but only + :food: / :commerce: cannot be explained will lead to players coming and complaining about it.
     
  13. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    How about a longer chain:
    Apiary -> Barton* (early medieval) -> Greenhouse (late renaissance or industrial) -> HF -> Farmscraper ?

    * in the dictionary I read it means a sort of farm so I hope it's a good name.

    Makes sense. I like it.

    I think it's okay.

    About UBs it's always an interesting decision: "Do I want to enjoy the UB bonus or trade it for the upgrade's other type of bonus?" I strongly think we should keep this kind of design - as I said about Forge replacements.

    Sometimes it's good if a UB does not upgrade but coexist with it's upgrade. However this shouldn't be a general rule rather a unique bonus of that specific UB.
     
  14. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Never having heard of barton outside of place names before, I went and did a quick check. Apparently, it comes from the old English for a barley enclosure and referred to a farm (generally on a manorial estate).
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
  15. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    ...than maybe it could be just a Greenhouse in renaissance era.
     
  16. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    Quick thought: I like Greenhouse. The Renaissance Era doesn't have nearly enough buildings. It has 33 buildings for 33 techs, compared to the Industrial Era having 59 buildings for 40 techs. There are so many techs in the Renaissance that could use an extra trick and the Greenhouse fits into an existing building chain, so I'm all in favor of it.
     
  17. Fozman

    Fozman Chieftain

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    I like this idea too, Zeta. Using Vokarya's constraints, there really isn't anything between Apiary and Hydroponics so a new building would be welcome here. A greenhouse would provide a similar producer/assistant type role and fits the timeline (started to appear around the 13th century or so).

    Do we think one of the more science-oriented techs would work? Sci Method, Physics & Chemistry have a low enough trick count (Physics in particular).
     
  18. jackelgull

    jackelgull An aberration of nature

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    Yeah, but either Scientific Method or Chemistry would be best, because physics and green house seems an odd fit
     
  19. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    I was thinking Chemistry, followed by moving the Laboratory to Scientific Method and consolidating the Museum at Archeology.

    For stats, here's what I think:
    • Apiary is +1 food/+2 commerce.
    • Greenhouse should be +2 food/+1 commerce, +1 food with Fertilizers.
    • Hydroponic Farm should be +8 food. This is equal to +3 from Greenhouse, +3 from Irrigation Canals, +2 for the upgrade.
    • Farmscraper should be +6 food, +6 with Fertilizers. This is actually down from its current level. But it's +4 over Hydroponic Farm with Fertilizers, or +3 food over Greenhouse without.
     
  20. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    Are you sure Greenhouse needs Fertilizers?
     

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