This would be a great civic if it merely made six units maintenance free. But it also GIVES you six free units that are stronger than riflemen, which is usually enough to conquer a neighbouring civ with if you have planned and timed it right. 
Volunteer army - insanely overpowered?
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If you're ahead in tech and got to ideology first, the foreign legions are indeed pretty powerful. I've used it to jump start a conquering spree before. In fact I've had games where I haven't even researched gunpowder but got foreign legion. It's sort of silly.
I agree, it can be very strong and even overpowered depending on the timing.
Not only are the units free, they are UU with bonuses outside of your borders and you don't even need to have the tech researched, as MarshalN notes. That number of 6 is also fixed and not dependent on the number or size of cities. So if you're playing a OCC this is a must-have policy.
Not only are the units free, they are UU with bonuses outside of your borders and you don't even need to have the tech researched, as MarshalN notes. That number of 6 is also fixed and not dependent on the number or size of cities. So if you're playing a OCC this is a must-have policy.
This would be a great civic if it merely made six units maintenance free. But it also GIVES you six free units that are stronger than riflemen, which is usually enough to conquer a neighbouring civ with if you have planned and timed it right.
I don't know if it's overpowered. I play Venice a lot lately, so what I need to buy while my capital builds is often not ideally military units.
It can be a powerful boost to go on the offensive and get rid of an aggressive neighbour if you have focused on science/culture and you get Freedom very early with factories. I experienced that once. I could barely catch up with Oda's military build ups and recurrent short wars with tons of units in one Emperor game. I destroyed each of his assaults since the beginning, but could not go on the offensive before Volunteer army as I couldn't get a sufficient science and military edge on him, nor keep enough TR alive long enough to buy myself an offensive force. He pillaged a lot , tiles and cargo ships alike, and was greatly slowing me down (and forcing me to keep 3 workers for post-war rebuilding), not to mention I had to buy units to prepare for his next attempt (my location was great for defense with bottlenecks and - thanks to him - 3 citadels, but I lacked space to rotate wounded cannon fodder properly). Then I got VA, let him lose most of his more advanced units in attacking Venice once more, then I refused peace and before he could build another wave of musketmen my foreign legions with my defensive ranged units and my fleet of Great Galleases went on the offensive and razed all his cities on our island. I could at last get trade routes up he wouldn't pillage every 20 turns, and I was back in the game.
Most times it's rather a welcome decent but not that significant boost to my military as a deterrent that buys me time to focus on the top of the science tree a while longer while Autocrats around go to war, or even more often I take it mostly to save gold. So basically it turned around one of my games where I had to get rid of a warmongering neighbour only. When I pick Freedom I'm not usually bent on conquest and play to deter war against me, so even if I have 6 powerful units early and they'd give me the edge to destroy a neighbour, using early Foreign Legions for warmongering, with the ensuing big diplo hits, is not part of my usual strategy when I pick Freedom.
Olleus
Deity
Got this as Venice a turn after a double DoW with huge numbers of muskets and crossbows marching onto my lonely pikeman. I might have been able to just about survive without them, but getting them allowed me to thrash their army, take a city, and scare England into giving me a 20 pop city without me being even close to their land. It is, indeed, very powerful. I think that the +20% in enemy territory should definitely go, and maybe change it to 2 free units per city, to a max of 6 free units?
bonafide11
Worker
Yeah, it is insanely powerful because of how early you can get it. Also odd since freedom isn't supposed to be the conquest victory type, yet they have some tenets that help a lot with military. Autocracy doesn't have much to help their science and Order doesn't have much to help their gold & relations with city-states since those are their weaknesses, but Freedom doesn't have any weaknesses. It's good for every victory condition.
Definitely, yeah. It should be an Autocracy tenet.
... also, why would a "volunteer army" produce... Foreign Legionaries?!
I'd really like it if each policy tree helped with only 2 VCs, but did so in a focused way that reflects historical emphases for the respective ideologies.
Freedom - diplo, culture
Order - science, domination
Autocracy - domination... culture? What with Nazi architecture and all.
Olleus
Deity
Rename the unit to "conscripts" and give them a -20% promotion in foreign territory (rather than +20%), which is lost on upgrade. Fits the Freedom idea a lot better.
Definitely, yeah. It should be an Autocracy tenet.
... also, why would a "volunteer army" produce... Foreign Legionaries?!
Most likely because the French Foreign Legion was started to gather on a voluntary basis potentially disruptive elements of society (failed revolutionaries from other European countries who had taken refuge in France, jobless Swiss mercenaries from disbanded regiments of the Bourbons etc.) to use them to fight for France abroad.
Yzman
Deity
I noted how powerful this was when the expansion first came out after I got them while everyone else had muskets. People didn't agree with me then, but I am glad people see what I mean now. I think it is for the most part OK, but it should probably be changed so that the units are good for defense and not offense.
The unit should also be changed then, as they're supposed to be a force of volunteers you use outside your territory to conquer or defend colonies, not a force to keep at home to defend the homeland, it's what your army is for.
Right now they have the flavor they're meant to have: a well-trained army of volunteers, stronger when fighting abroad in the name of the Freedom ideology, should you need to get rid of a few aggressive rivals to strengthen your new democratic regime.
Gort
Emperor
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I'm not sure it's overpowered compared to the other level 2 Freedom tenets. Half unhappiness from specialists is amazing once you stack it with half food requirements for specialists AND +1 hammers from specialists. It supercharges your entire empire.
joshua43214
King
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It is not overpowered. and definitely should not be an autocracy tenet.
Autocracy already has huge bennies for warmongering, it certainly does not need any more.
When you play peaceful, making units is counterproductive. These units come right at the awkward time when you are still sitting around with cross bows and the AI all decides that Industrial Era means War Era.
Besides, if you are using a 2nd tier freedom tenet to jump start warmongering...well not sure what to say that is polite
Autocracy already has huge bennies for warmongering, it certainly does not need any more.
When you play peaceful, making units is counterproductive. These units come right at the awkward time when you are still sitting around with cross bows and the AI all decides that Industrial Era means War Era.
Besides, if you are using a 2nd tier freedom tenet to jump start warmongering...well not sure what to say that is polite
I see where you're coming from, but just like "New Deal" isn't just "a deal that is new", "Volunteer Army", especially in the context of liberal democracy, is a somewhat specific reference and not just "an army made up of volunteers." It refers to at least one of the following (needless to say, I'm not a professional historian
):1) the modern-day US army and its shift away from a mass-based conscript army towards a leaner, more highly-trained, elite force in the aftermath of the Vietnam War; OR
2) the British manning their empire with, again, a smaller, professional service as compared to the French or Germans, who maintained conscription even in peacetime prior to the world wars
OR
3) more generally, the gradual realization that conscript armies in general are anti-democratic and the phasing out of national service in most liberal democracies (not mine....
) and their replacement by the aforesaid "volunteer armies".None of these ideas are particularly well-represented by Volunteer Army as it is.
I agree. The 6 Legions can change a war, but not a game.
But that's the whole point. Speaking as a Freedom player, what's keeping it so powerful is, like someone else mentioned, it's all-round versatility. In a game of opportunity costs there should be a weakness for every strength. Freedom shouldn't be the best for tourism (Media Culture), science (New Deal and more importantly Treaty Organization + Scholasticism) AND be essentially invulnerable at the same time. That's exactly why people think it's overpowered.
Furthermore, I think everyone can agree that Autocracy is still underpowered at this time. Giving it the Legions (something like the Waffen-SS) would be perfect.
I don't think it is overpowered. If you are going the Freedom route, you won't have conquest in mind, and there are many other stronger level 2 tenets for a peaceful player.
If it were overpowered, I would be choosing Volunteer Army as my first level 2 tenet every time I go Freedom, but the fact is I usually choose Universal Suffrage and New Deal first. On its own, Volunteer Army is very strong, but because it doesn't synergise well with the other Freedom tenets or the playstyle that a Freedom chooser would tend to favour, it doesn't feel OP.
Autocracy feels weak not because it is inherently weak, but because wamongering has become a sub-optimal strategy in BNW. To buff autocracy, the devs should focus on making warmongering worthwhile again.
If it were overpowered, I would be choosing Volunteer Army as my first level 2 tenet every time I go Freedom, but the fact is I usually choose Universal Suffrage and New Deal first. On its own, Volunteer Army is very strong, but because it doesn't synergise well with the other Freedom tenets or the playstyle that a Freedom chooser would tend to favour, it doesn't feel OP.
Freedom is versatile and useful if you have no particular focus and want a policy that lets you be good at everything. But the other two tenets are much better in terms of specialisation - Autocracy is great for warmongering while Order is great for tourism and science.
Autocracy feels weak not because it is inherently weak, but because wamongering has become a sub-optimal strategy in BNW. To buff autocracy, the devs should focus on making warmongering worthwhile again.
Arachnofiend
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If you're not going to warmonger, popping Volunteer Army can make an aggressive AI with a much stronger military turn right back around and attack someone who isn't running units that are an era ahead of his tech. In addition, the tenant runs in opposition to the entire design philosophy of the ideologies; frankly, Volunteer Army and Arsenal of Democracy are better than the Order warmongering tenants.
At the very least it should be changed to "may build Foreign Legions upon researching Replaceable Parts".
That being said, Autocracy is definitely not underpowered. You just need to keep playing while you're in a losing position to see how excellent it is. Also late game warmongering works just fine in Brave New World, it's early game that needs fixing.
At the very least it should be changed to "may build Foreign Legions upon researching Replaceable Parts".
That being said, Autocracy is definitely not underpowered. You just need to keep playing while you're in a losing position to see how excellent it is. Also late game warmongering works just fine in Brave New World, it's early game that needs fixing.
joshua43214
King
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Arsenal of democracy and volunteer army are meant so that the small focused empire can get out a defensive army when someone like Washington marches in with his late game carpet of death. It may seem out of place in freedom, but if you moved it to autocracy it would just get silly for empires that have a lot of cities that can produce units.
warmongering with freedom is just silly anyway. On immortal, the average AI will have muskets or riffles when you take the tenet. they are only an era ahead for a few turns before they are obsolete. I suppose on King you could destroy the world with 6 foreign legions, but they are just so much fodder on high difficulty. They basically just give you some breathing space to get some bombers up.
warmongering with freedom is just silly anyway. On immortal, the average AI will have muskets or riffles when you take the tenet. they are only an era ahead for a few turns before they are obsolete. I suppose on King you could destroy the world with 6 foreign legions, but they are just so much fodder on high difficulty. They basically just give you some breathing space to get some bombers up.
Callonia
Deity
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It's just six units, and if they die you can't get them back again. Go send those six units against my 100+ I dare u to. They're probably overpowered on tiny maps but that's basically it.
I'm very averse of a thought of six maintenance free units that cannot be replaced if they die because you aren't allowed to rebuild them until you have six again.... that's what bugs me the most about volunteer army.
And at most six units will basically defend a city for you. But i can see a period of overpoweredness during musketmen era or early, but.. that's only up against AIs. I doubt they won't be do much against humans other than make the city basically unassailable cuz humans will charge ur city and see them infantry and retreat.
Its a temporary bonus, its not that good compared to permanent bonus which will be always there the moment you take it up.
I'm very averse of a thought of six maintenance free units that cannot be replaced if they die because you aren't allowed to rebuild them until you have six again.... that's what bugs me the most about volunteer army.
And at most six units will basically defend a city for you. But i can see a period of overpoweredness during musketmen era or early, but.. that's only up against AIs. I doubt they won't be do much against humans other than make the city basically unassailable cuz humans will charge ur city and see them infantry and retreat.
Its a temporary bonus, its not that good compared to permanent bonus which will be always there the moment you take it up.
Nope, this specifically refers to the French concept of Foreign Legion, a non-conscripted army fighting exclusively out of France. What you describe is simply the modern professional standing army. It wouldn't make sense for those to have a bonus for fighting abroad, it should be the opposite: a bonus when fighting in defense of the state/homeland (as opposed to fighting for a monarch).
The "Volunteer Army" refers to what Louis Philippe introduced during the Monarchie de Juillet and that endured during the following Republic, the Second Empire, the Republic again.. Potentially dangerous elements for the state, as they could become militia for someone planning a coup d'état (ex-mercenaries who had served the last Bourbon king, mostly Swiss, ex-revolutionaries who were often political refugees in Republican France from Russia, Prussia, Austria etc. and Frenchmen as well) were offered jobs as soldiers for France. Those units, with special training, to develop their esprit de corps, were to be kept outside France (that's the whole idea...) - on the offensive/defense in its colonies in Africa, mostly. The concept was copied elsewhere afterward.
I agree it's a somewhat way too specific concept and it should be replaced with "professional/non-conscript" army and another unit than the Foreign Legion, but the thing is they made a tenet for Freedom from the old French UU and the concept behind it, taking it as is. It's still fits for Freedom as this was an early idea to secure a fledging constitutional regime by removing ex-soldiers and potential fighters that seditious political elements (either pro-Bourbons, pro-Bonaparte or anti-Orléans) could use to topple the constitutional government.
Arachnofiend
Perturbed Pugilist
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If you think six Great War Infantry can't beat a carpet of riflemen then you clearly do not understand tactical warfare.
