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Volunteer vassalage

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by matlajs, Oct 16, 2018.

  1. matlajs

    matlajs Chieftain

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    I brought this up before in 9/25 thread, and it unfortunately turned into blaming who insults whom. I really want to hear as many opinions on this as possible. I do not pretend, that i would be glad to see some symphatizers, because that mechanic in its current state slightly gets on my nerves( not that hard,but....), but normal disscusion or opposite view can not hurt anything. I really do not want to turn it off, because it would set a warmongers into dissadvantage. I'll go straight to the point. I just don't see any reason, why should be vassals partially untouchable, especially those volunteer ones. I remember, that in versions about year ago, THAT was happening to, and a community decided to get rid off it. I would gladly hear, what changed their mind on this. In a fact, i would love this feature, as a kind of an alliance, if there were a simple defensive pact implemented in a such deal. I feel sorry for an AI neighbouring a vassal. They clearly express an intentions to attacking them, but are unable to do so. And while a slight single runaway can become a target for hate, for DoW deals etc. ,vassals can't. I want to hear just one reason, why they shouldn't be targetable for DoW. It is not like a rest of the world is able to form similar pact and keep a step. I believe, that that mechanic could be improved a lot to actually make a sense, add more fun and not being just a bothering thing for a human player, and an obstacle for AI. I understand, that this would require maybe a lot of work. That is why am i asking for opinions in a first place.

    I hope it is understandable. I am poor at using a proper tenses.
     
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Easy answer: no. Not going to happen. Stop spamming this.

    G
     
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  3. CppMaster

    CppMaster Chieftain

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    One of the reasons could be that it would make vassals even weaker. Right now being a vassal to a strong civ means that an aggressor would have to attack the master, so it's an effective deterrent.

    The issue I see about volunteer vassalage is that civs become afraid a lot more easily since a VP version which changed military score calculation to scale inversely with number of cities (the less cities you have, the more military score you have). The more a civ is afraid the more chances that they will be a vassal for a protection.
    Example:
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...tember-25th-9-25.636800/page-27#post-15242948
     
  4. matlajs

    matlajs Chieftain

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    I think, if defensive pact was in, result would be the same. The same exchange of yields, a same protection. Only thing that may get changed by doing this is, that it would be so broken and unfair no more, for AI especially.

    If an AI feel such confident in attacking protected civ, and they would actually know how to do that, then there is no problem at all. But right now, that is bugged.like hell. Why an AI is able to attack someone with more than 1 defensive pact, but is unwilling to attack a same number of civs united by vassalage?

    This is also a thing. You are right. In one of my previous games i managed get one vassal that way. And you know what? He never left a pact. I wasn't having no extra good relations with him and he still kept be vassal until the end of the game. No matter that i was having an unhappiness crisis for some time. He even ploted against me not just once. So another question is, if an vassal AI actually can leave a pact. I have seen that happen in an earlier versions, but not in these later ones, not once.
     
  5. CppMaster

    CppMaster Chieftain

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    It's not the same. Master gain much more benefits from having a vassal.
     
  6. matlajs

    matlajs Chieftain

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    Yes. And how would having defensive pact implemented into vassal deal change a benefits? Aside a fact, that they would become vulnerable to DoW. You know, i am not sure, but i think, that AI is not willing to attack one of the strongest, most developed and overall runaway civ(which master easily become, especially if he get more than 1 vassal, which is pretty standard here as far as i can see) voluntarily, and it makes a sense. I wouldn't do that myself, cause i have to be mad to fight more than half the world alone(w/o authority even more so). And that is, what a player have to going to do, cause only thing, which a friendly AI offers, is coop DoW on one of the vassals, which is ofc impossible.

    But i am not strictly for having the above said done. I would be completely happy just for change to AI behaviour, which could get learned to attack a master instead of vassal. Also i would become more happy to see slight a change to AI logic, when it comes to leaving a master, if he get too far.
     
  7. CppMaster

    CppMaster Chieftain

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    Don't vassalage include defensive pact?
     
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  8. matlajs

    matlajs Chieftain

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    No, because a defensive pact is a double edged sword. If Gazebo turn off a possiblity to attack vassal , then maybe other AIs will become more willing to do other things. In my current game(Spain), i was given a proposal for coop war by Rome to attack Maya , and by Carthage to attack Harum. Both Harum and Pacal are volunteer vassals of Ahmad. AI still see a vassals as independant, DoW-able, competent part of the world , which is invalidated by vassalage-deal.

    Thing also is, like you did noticed aswell, that volunteer vassalage became somewhat easy to obtain, even possible for human player, which wasn't a thing before. And while i like, that there are equal possibilities for both, human and AI, i think it became too much easy even for my taste. And i say, cease it to AI, but make it also more vulnerable.

    I swear to god, that i won't propose global liberation in WC, even if it would mean my defeat, cause i want to see, if vassals will just sit and wait untill their master win a game. Which shouldn't happen, given, that there were proclamation about AI and each of it should be competitive, pursuing their own victory.
     
  9. CppMaster

    CppMaster Chieftain

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    I have vassals almost every game, but I have never had a situation when a vassal liberated himself, even without Iron Fist tenet.
     
  10. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I also have no issues with the current system.
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Let’s try something constructive: instead of asking for things that will never happen, pinpoint situations in which the AI violates the current rules. You say that you had two instances of the AI bribing you to war with an invalid target. Okay. Which version? Logs?

    Repeatedly demanding a change that won’t happen isn’t helpful. It’s rude and absurd. So stop. Focus on what we have and work with it. Either that, or be quiet. Last warning.

    G
     
  12. Almonds

    Almonds Chieftain

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    I really like how Vasslage functions in this mod and would not want to see any changes made. Your premise expresses frustration over the fact that AI are unable to be DoW'd on directly, but to me that seems like the whole point. The Master civ acts as a deterrant against other potential conquerors, and in exchange takes yields from the Vassal. It's kind of odd how you call for change but can't refute this properly. The burden of proof lies upon you to make a compelling argument against what I just described in favor of something better. Your proposal to make the relationship less ironclad by only providing a free Defensive Pact is not even a change; it will provide the exact same functionality. Civs still won't attack the Vassal because they will be provoking the Master to act in the exact same way.
     
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  13. matlajs

    matlajs Chieftain

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    Version 25/9 and it was not trade deal, but a diplomatic offer. On the last part of your message- now i don't understand your warnings completely. Or do you warn me for disscusing in a thread, which me myself created for this specific reason? Where do you see any demand? Who forced you to participate here? I already know your opinion, just wanted to see, if i have any symphatizers on that or not. And as far as i can see i have none, i admit it. So please, be democrat and leave me be. I do't think i am one of those, who spam a screen with threads. Logs and a github post you already have - by jimmymcperson.
     
  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    A coop war offer? Please elaborate.

    Funny thing about a public forum is that you don’t get to pick and choose people that get to contribute. If you only want like minded people to respond that’s not a discussion, that’s a false quorum.

    G
     
  15. RuntimeError

    RuntimeError Chieftain

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    I like the current mechanics, so I disagree with OP (just to be clear), but I have a question: how can I get some insight about the evaluation of a AI becoming a vassal? This logic has been changed recently?

    I had 2 games in a row (I think it was 9-15 version) where I had a feeling that it was a bit wonky. The most weird example, the leader in score (Inca) being a vassal of the second (Ethiopia) when I discovered them on the other continent.

    I don't have the saves anymore and this is not a complaint, but if it happens again, what can I do to understand it better?
     
  16. matlajs

    matlajs Chieftain

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    By a ,,logs'' you mean those you want on github? Yes i speak about coop war offer( that ,,Should we DoW someone'').
     
  17. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    Why was the volunteer vasselage introduced in first place? Cant remember when it happened or which discussing was before the integration. But I think there are 2 main reasons:

    1.) A nation is completly underpowered to a neighboring nation, and a defeat in a war is extremly probably. The underpowered nation accept that fact and pay yields and obedience to its master. In trade for that, he didnt get conquered and is from now on protected by its master from other great powers.
    2.) Both nations want to form a strong alliance with each other, now being stronger together and reach something, which were hard to reach or impossible alone.

    Thoughts:
    1.) Absolutly understandable. It prevents unnecessary wars with a clear outcome and give both nations an advantage, protection for the vassal and yields for the master.

    2.) Its understandable to create an aliance with others to reach your own targets. But thers no reason why same strenght nations should go to a volunteer vasselage. In the moment, in most cases I watch, those volunteer vasselages are between nearly same strenght empires. The outcome of a war between those two empires is completly open, cause often have the same military or economic strength. There is no reason why one should pay yields and obedience to the other, if hes clearly able to defend himself agaist others, even against the master.
    An alliance is a pact between 2 nations of equal rights. Theres no reason why the one should pay the other and give all the votes the other wants to win.

    In fact, the mod is using vasselage for 2 different diplomatic interactions.
    Volunteer vasselage should have a treshold to be allowed. Like, the future master need to have atleast 4 times the population/cities than the vassal, to be an option in interaction menue.
    Otherwise, it loses, in my opinion originally intended, purpose.
     
  18. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    no cuz civ 4 did it and ppl kinda like the idea of fighting vassal states and vassalage itself so then putmalk made the same concept apply here.

    The system is essentially fine, it's only same-user complaint syndrome again.
     
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  19. matlajs

    matlajs Chieftain

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    BitMark explained better my thought than i did, because every more complicated issue i try to express in english costs me a lot of energy. On the second hand, i am not ,,fine'' with this mechanic and as i recall i am freely able to express that here,

    I complained, once, maybe a year or two ago about this mechanic true, but that was rather informative because i have never seen it before. Now for instance, that mechanic does not work as it did by that times. Before, that was pretty standard, that volunteers left a master at some point. They got some reasonable lead / catched up and were on their way. THAT does not happen in recent versions. I have seen these vassal deals already 3 times and it was always the same - never ending story. And what is the point of having that turned on in its current state, if only way is( or almost ever) domination and conquest. If i play each game in the same manner, picking authority/xx/imperialism , then i wouldn't care ofcourse.

    And then there is that bug( or atleast Gazebo says so) about AI DoWing vassals. So instead of me, getting a good offers by other potential participants willing to break that aliance by offering a cooperative attack against a master, i get offers to attack vassal, which only yield -30 diplomatic points for dissapointing them.
     
  20. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    I like volunteer vasselage, it make absolutly sense to subjugate other nations by diplomacy, if an outcome of a war is extremly clearly.
    But I didnt like the fact, its used for 2 different diplomatic interactions.
    Its like saying in world war 2, the diplomatic relations between slovakia/vichy-france and nazi-germany were the same than great britian and the usa.
    Equally powered nations shouldnt create a master-vassal relation. Cause the game mechanic didnt treat them as an alliance and unbalance the game. Either you create another diplomatic relation status (alliance, in which I didnt see any need, cause defence pact and coop-wars offer the same outcome), or you greatly increase the requirement for a volunteery vasselage (like already said, something like 4 times greater power/cities/etc.).
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
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