Discussion in 'Civ5 - Succession Games' started by Optional, Jul 6, 2011.
Crap I missed the boat on this one. Traveling and all. Oh well. I'll lurk along and make comments.
43 -End turn
44-45 - Harald jiggling his warriors around but we're holding
46 - 3 enemy warriors down for no losses, Thebes goes onto Great Library as I think we have enough army and don't have happiness for a granary
49 - threat neutralised with some archery goodness, going to link gold
50 - iron working started, much Viking blood has been shed, and Harald suicides his last scout
52 - got gold + 3 happy, arranged citizens accordingly, will try to remove camp up north but galley is around
53 - Harald offers this. I take it and buy a worker for double choppage towards GL, and we have many tiles to improve for later, archer sees not much beyond north camp so I will leave it until KL wants it dead
56 - new policy, went for tradition for culture expansion in Memphis and option for oligarchy range bonus when Harald strikes again
60 - GL is ours next turn. We can bulb Philo. We have some barbs around but I left the workers under fire. I think a galley can't 1 shot that gold worker can it? Otherwise it can be moved. I moved the archer to take out the east side barb archer so the pasture can be worked. I chopped 2 trees when maybe 1 was only needed but I think we don't need lumbermills that desperately in Thebes.
We can hook up the duplicate gold and sell it to Cathy. And we can hook up dyes next. With IW in 3 turns maybe we should think of defense again. Harald will be back I think.
And we had a cool archer who probably needs a name but i don't know how to name him
On 60 Cathy enters the classical era. Here's the situation.
Bigger pictures here, new to this
That's a pity. Please do add. Personally I would be for allowing a new player too on the roster.
A good dash for the GLib. I guess we will take Philo with the free tech?
Since we have OB from Harald we should be scouting him out whilst we can.
I see 3/4 potential city sites left to us.
The white dot is the most likely to go soon and also the most likely to cause trouble.
The blue dot is more of a blocker than anthing else but can potentially be an pretty decent city. With the new patch is pretty easy to come by as well so filler cities are ok IMO.
The yellow dot is a pretty safe bet and is good for picking up the silks. Will need several worker to chop the city out and may have to wait till Lumbermills to get production in hand.
The black dot is a filler and can be left for a long while as I doubt the AI will go for it any time soon. There is another fish that isn't on this screenshot so it will have plenty of food to work some hills. May make an ok naval base.
The warriors could potentially be moved to better fog busting positions for some of these sites.
I'm not suggesting we go all out for these spots right now though getting at least one of them in the next set might be a nice idea.
I'm happy for you to join and I think Optional would like another player so if you want the place you should ask him. I know from playing with you your a good player and write a decent report so I be happy to have you on board! Of course you'd need the correct DLC which if I recall you might not have....
Cool I like the city placement analysis graphic.
Blue I always thought could be a good city for mass trading posts but we don't need that yet. Black is a filler but it's not that bad. There is another fish there which somehow doesn't show on the map. Harald will maybe settle the white one so we can take it from him. Yellow is a good place to settle the next city I think. It will also give us a coastal city.
We could drop an extra city or 2 then get the policy to give 4 free culture buildings to provide burial tombs.
Also I was kicking myself yesterday night for not scouting Harald straight after the peace treaty. I just realised that we should do that but we still can do it now.
I also wasn't sure if I should have bought a worker or maybe waited with the gold to upgrade some warriors after IW. We could still use the 3rd worker, esp. if we get a new city down soon. And we can trade gold to Cathy for some military upgrade money. Just a few musings from me.
I'm going to call it early. There will be iron in Memphis. Just a guess, let's see.
And I forgot this
Optional - up now
Emstinson - on deck
Or we could do it like this as we have all just made 1 turn so far
Optional - on deck
Chimera - up now
It's up to you, but the roster hadn't even been round yet when you posted this. It's still early stages.
A spot is definitely still open.
I had a look at the save. Here's roughly the situation we're in:
Egypt, 1600 BC, 60 turns played:
Thebes, 3 citizens
Memphis, 2 citizens
In the demographic overview that puts us at rockbottom with 27000 inhabitants. The best is nearly 10 times as much, 232000. Oops.
We have 9 units:
That puts us in third place for military.
Economically, we are making 10 gpt from tiles (8 from Thebes, 2 from Memphis),
We are spending 11 gpt, 9 for units, 2 for buildings.
We own 15 gold, and are losing a gold each turn.
Thebes is building the Great Library, to come in in 1 turn,
Memphis is building a granary, to come in in 2 turns.
We have 2 , there are some luxes in our borders we have yet to hook up.
We know 2 civs:
Denmark and Russia, Denmark being a bit closer to us than Russia.
Denmark has 3 social policies, 2 in Tradition, 1 in Honour.
Russia has 4, all Tradition.
I don't know if other people would be able to chime in on this, but I'm guessing that AI's that invest mainly in Tradition are trying to win the game with less towns, and are going less for expansion.
We know 2 City States,
Kuala Lumpur, cultural and hostile, Pearls,
Vienna, cultural and friendly, Pearls.
Plans for next:
Growth should be a priority. We are far behind the pack in population. Thebes gains a citizen and finishes a project next turn, I'm suggesting a settler as the next build. Memphis can work one of Thebes' farm tiles while the settler is being built.
As a spot for the next town I like grandad's blue dot, for growth reasons, and it's central. It's got no luxes or river-gold, not normally a good spot, but in the situation we are I think it would be a strong addition.
White dot is perhaps a little too aggressive to do first, and Yellow dot is somewhat out of the way. Yellow would be easier to defend once blue is in.
Black... not taking that one serious for now.
Memphis, what to do here after the granary? No units, I suppose, we have so many already. Burial Tomb? +2 gold and +2 happiness would make going for a fourth town easier; I can't think of much better for now.
I'm of course assuming then that we will claim the Great Library, which isn't completely certain, but if we do, picking Philosophy makes the most sense, as it's by far the most expensive tech from the ones we can choose from, and Philosophy just happens to enable the Burial Tomb.
For research I think we should go Masonry, we should perhaps have picked that one earlier, as one of our workers is already working close to that Marble tile just now.
Echoing what grandad1982 already said, we should definitely use a unit for scouting to see the Danish lands and beyond. The world could stop where Harald is, or maybe we're part of a big pangaea. We don't know if we don't scout. We haven't found any world wonders and as yet only 2 of 12 CS's.
Settler in Thebes is a great idea as we only have 4 improved tiles in that city atm. and we don't need to grow that city too much yet above 4. I think it's better to put happy faces into Memphis growth, which will be fairly fast with granary and sheep pastures. We can balance the books by working a gold in Thebes I think, and selling gold as a resource to Cathy hopefully.
I think if we drop a 3rd city on Grandads yellow and chop out a monument there, we can take the social policy Legalism to get 3 free burial tombs.
Masonry would be my choice also then maybe the wheel and mathematics. Or we could go for sailing to explore around. We are a bit lacking in vision. I hope we do get GL because a free library is also pretty cool.
Demo pop is a very poor guide. It may not be so unreliable in the early game but later even if you have more overall pop than a rival civ it will say you are smaller (something to do with city sizes rather than empire pop).
The reason for our lack of growth was Harald forcing us off the gold before we improved it so we spent longer in
I'm not sure about the SP thing but it makes sence that a civ that is going mainly tradition will stay smaller as that is its stated purpose.
I agree to Marble next. More happy=more growth. With that and iron we are looking at 10 turns of research but this of course will change with the +3 and the library from the GLib. I would suggest either the Wheel so we can start to head towards Currency (Mints and Markets) or trapping so we can go for Civil Service. The growth in our capital should make decent sci city with CS farms and the NC at some point.
In Memphis a Burial Tomb is good as its a maintenance free building.
I guess Thebes will be building a settler. If not a Burial Tomb is nice here too. By the way its not
Ah, I must have misread or misremembered. It's still nice, better than a monument. The only reason to build monuments now is if you would want your 4 free cultural to be Burial Tombs, then you must have monuments first. Hmm, I don't know if we want to wait with Burial Tombs until we are up 4 towns with monuments for maximum effect.
Next Social Policy is to come in in 16 turns, maybe a bit faster if the Great library gives some culture.
Maybe the next player should play until when this moment is.
The next player could be me, but I like to allow some time for Emstinson or perhaps Chimera1804 to check in.
GLib gives +1 so I think we maybe get the policy 2 turns earlier. Not totally sure.
Monuments are also very good as with Organised Religion [?] you get a for them as well as Temples and Monasteries. That makes our Tombs +3!
lurker's comment: Well see, I don't have any DLCs other than Mongolia...
I'll be watching.
We'll keep making pictures, so that it's easier to follow!
I've played 6 turns of my set, planning to make 4 more, 10 seems plenty now for a set, but the discovery of Iron should affect our city planning, so I prefer some team input before deciding on a spot.
My turnset will make a clearer picture of the decision we have to make:
Great Library finishes, choose Philosophy as free tech.
Thebes > settler, juggling around some tiles, give Memphis one of Thebes +3 food tiles.
Calling Harald, selling open borders would give 27 gold. Something is better than nothing, but first I check with our military advisor to see what he says about the Danish military. They hardly have an army, our advisor says, so I feel confident we don't stand a risk here and so I... urm, forget to make the deal. Did it a few turns later.
Iron Working comes in! 2 sources show up, both doubles, no six-shooters:
Moving a soldier of ours nearer to Danish borders reveals that Harald's having to deal with a couple of intruders:
The Danish military must indeed be very thin when that is happening. I'd like to try catching that worker.
Memphis finishes granary > Warrior Tomb next.
Sell open borders to Harald, since I forgot to do that a few turns earlier.
An archer of ours promotes, as he's been in an ongoing skirmish with a barb archer in the east. I'm choosing double barrage - I don't really know the upgrade paths yet, if something else would have let to something better, please say. I'm naming him Hassan.
Harald got his Gems pillaged by a barb archer. Seeing his sorry empire, I think we should have gone for his scalp rather than sign peace a few turns ago.
In between turn Cathy asks for our spare Gold that has come on line. Sorry Cathy, that'll cost you roebels (I've really not figured out yet what the value of 'friendship' is in this game, by the way).
I let Cathy pay 177 gold + 2gpt for our Gold - hm, that sounds weird, putting it like that.
Our exploring warrior in Danish lands can make an easy kill, as the barb archer who pillaged Harald's Gems is fleeing from Copenhagen's grasp. I decide against that, though, I rather move on, as there's quite a bit of land here, it might even be difficult to find that worker in this space:
In the east our warrior Dave has just dealt with that barb archer over there, and now spots something across water. I'm having him hop on a sheep-hill to have a better look:
There might be nothing there, but a scout with vision would have been handy at a point like that.
Masonry comes in. I have a worker starting on the Marble now, he was already available a turn ago, but I decided to let him wait a turn, rather than sending him off elsewhere and than having to call him back later, as that would have wasted even more turns.
Open borders with Catherine ended, renew; 19 gold + 1gpt.
We now have some cash again, and could upgrade 3 warriors to swords with Iron.
Here is where I paused. I believe, if I'm playing 4 more turns, I'm still not needing to know exactly which spot would be best for our third city, as our settler would be merely on the way, but I prefer a break anyway, and continue tomorrow.
Seeing where the iron is, original blue dot is too far away from it, it needs to be put a little further south. Except, that brings us closer to Catherine, and her army is stronger than ours. Do we want to provoke her?
The dot closer to Harald - the one we thought could give trouble - could be safer, as it's further away from Catherine, and trouble with Harald is err... well, without him having a military, what's the trouble?
White dot is looking good now. I'd go for this first.
The blue dot could be moved to the spot SW of the cows but this is not sucha good city site IMO. Any closer to Cathy and I think that spells trouble. I think the distance where the AI start to get annoyed is less than 4 tiles from their borders, however I'm not really sure and I don't know if this is from our city or its borders.
The Drill2 is good. Its always best to stick to on line - drill or shock - as its after the 3rd promo that the best stuff starts to appear. Getting a medic is always nice as well.
What tech you thinking of going for now?
Looks like Harald tried to settle the white dot but lost his settler. So no reason for us not to take it then. And if we do have cash to upgrade to swords if necessary then he will not be able to threaten us I guess. I think the failed warrior rush crippled him.
^^ I agree. The AI often gimp themselves with these failed rushes.
For techs I think The wheel is quite handy for now, after improving a few more tiles it wouldn't be too early for our workers to lay a road between memphis and Thebes, which are only 3 tiles apart.
The wheel would also give us War Chariots.
Then perhaps Trapping > Civil Service.
The Great Library - of which I wasn't a fan initially - has sped up research quite a bit, more than I thought. A cheap tech like The Wheel we're doing in 3 turns now.
An alternative route would be Sailing > Optics for sea exploration, but I would have considered that more if we had been on a small continent. Since we have just discovered the land is much bigger than we originally suspected, and this might be one big pangaea, I don't think we have a reason to shoot for seafaring techs just now.
For our third town I have a slight preference for putting it straight next to the iron, a tile south of the white dot. It'll take a few more tiles in Cathy's direction, but it's still 5 tiles away from her border.
I also just checked what she's got, but she's got neither horses or iron. If we keep a few units around that town we should be safe. Settling a bit aggressively didn't do us much harm in the case of Memphis, and I don't think there's any need for us to become coy now.
Getting a couple more units out of Thebes might be a good thing, though, just to play it safe. With 3 towns, 3 workers, the presence of barbs and a Cathy whose military is stronger than ours, our 5 units on military duty could do with a pair of extra hands. Yeah, we've got 6 soldiers in total, but 1 is exploring and he should continue doing that.
Not a lot happened in the last 4 turns;
Start research on The wheel.
Our exploring warrior now finds out where the worker has ended up:
I'm also noticing that our warrior is wounded. Some barb must have suicided on him, with battle animations off I've missed that.
Thebes finishes settler > archer, juggling tiles around again.
Sending an archer through Copenhagen to help our warrior with the barb camp. There's still a barbarian around Copenhagen.
Our archer got attacked and loses 9(!) hitpoints. I had expected the attack, not that the loss would be so heavy. I'm calling the warrior back for assistance. The situation is still under control, but we need to be careful with our archer now.
This is how it now looks;
You can also see we'll have a third town in 2 turns time.
This is the situation in the north;
That's under control. Kuala Lumpur still hasn't asked for any assistance against barbs. Maybe we should let those barbs into their territory a bit more, but Kuala Lumpur is not the most interesting city state. I don't think we should throw money at them for influence soon, but maybe later.
The Wheel has just come in, possibly Trapping > Civil Service next.
I was just looking at the save, looking nice. At least we found land beyond Copenhagen. I had an idea just thought I'd put it out, I don't know how solid it is.
I think we could still make a run for HG in Memphis if we go mathematics next - 7 turns. I was looking at the city and we could try to micro it to grow ASAP to size 5 (can go to size 4 in 2 turns if food emphasised) then switch to production basis and with the marble and UA we get a hammer boost on HG. (maybe this is not an improvement on just 4 pop though) Mathematics could also give us a catapult made in Thebes possibly.
I think the blue ? is better as it's closer to the river for extra commerce tiles and it's closer to road, also closer to road to Copenhagen which will one day be ours quite likely. But the white ? gives us more rapid access to iron and we have the money to upgrade to swords now. In this case settling on the white ? is maybe better.
I think Cathy will be annoyed at us because we didn't gift the gold. But I totally agree on that decision. We can't give her that bonus so early on. Better to take a diplo hit I think.
On the blue ? the first tile to be taken by the border expansion is going to be the iron. I don't see getting 2 iron as being enough to take Copenhagen so settling white ? seems less important hat it could be.
Or maybe I'm wrong and two swords will allow us to take the city. I'm not a great attacking warmonger, especially in the ancient era.
Can I assume since we're building a Tomb that we won't be taking Legalism? Seems it would be a waste of production and culture. I guess this leaves more from Lib or start on Piety maybe. I quite like the idea of Piety at some point. Organised Religion combined with Meritocracy will remove the generated by cities (I suspect all cities will get monuments and Tombs). With 2 buildings and a road that means 5 !! Pretty cheap happy.
Based on that I would say Meritocracy as our next SP.
Not giving Cathy what she wanted is going to be an issue when it comes to potentially settling near her. Also she will be less tolerant of us that a true friend will be. Oh well shes going to die at some point!
I think its getting a bit late to go for Math > Hanging Gardens. It would be very annoying to invest in it just to lose out.
Tech to CS would work for me.
Memphis could go for a Lib or a Watermill IMO. Or a barracks.
I hadn't given it any thought yet. In my games all the early wonders are always gone before turn 40 or so. I don't know what the AI is doing in this game.
Memphis is still very weak in production, though, only 5 hammers per turn. Any % bonus over that from being Egypt and having Marble won't be much until this town gets better. I'm not completely against it, but I would hate seeing us selecting production tiles over growth tiles. We've done that so many times already, sometimes forced by war, but now that we're finally in the situation that our towns can grow I'd like to take that chance.
Maybe we can look for wonders a bit further down the line, when Memphis is in a better shape. Notre Dame or Porcelain Tower or so. First get a stable in town for extra hammers from our 5 sheep and the horses, that'll give a significant boost.
I started building a tomb, but I'm disappointed by how long it's taking. I looks like it would have been better after all to plan 4 monuments in 4 cities and then grab the tombs with Legalism. I thought beforehand that would be a bit complicated to plan in an SG, and also that we could use a tomb earlier, as we were short on money and happiness. But money and happiness is okay now, I didn't realize I could turn that around so quickly. I sometimes miss the insight that an experienced player would have.
I think we need a comprehensive plan with regards to social policies, not just 'that policy looks nice now', but looking a bit further ahead. We haven't done that much.
I know of course of this line 'You refused a request, despite having made a declaration of friendship', but I still have to see this 'true friend' among the AI. I'm not convinced it counts for much.
Someone posted in the forums the other day argueing it was better not to sign any declarations of friendship if you want to keep good relationships. He said the positive modifier for having made a declaration of friendship fades quickly, while the negative modifier for having refused a request sticks with you all game.
If you make a declaration of friendship, you know the AI will knock on your door the moment you hook up a spare lux. The AI's turn is just after your worker has hooked up the resource and before your own turn. That's stupid, because it means you can't do anything with that resource before the AI gets an opportunity to request it.
But the advantage of being able to trade your resource yourself is too big to throw it away for something vague like not getting a negative modifier. What are these modifiers modifying? Maybe it just affects the chance of an AI requesting a declaration of friendship for a second time or something trivial like that.
I know in Civ III each AI had an 'attitude' towards you, they were either furious, annoyed, cautious, friendly or gracious, but it all meant next to nothing. An AI that was gracious could almost as easily declare on you as a civ that was furious, as other factors had much more influence. Experienced players in Civ III commonly ignored the AI's attitude completely. With Civ 5 I get the impression it's the same thing. Seemingly being on good terms means nothing with the chances of backstab being so high.
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