Von Münchhausen III

[Optional]

Let's take off again with an SG, ! PM's sent to the crew of the last one, but the roster is open to everyone.
Ideas for this SG, mainly to make a difference from the last one(s):
*Seafaring civ & map for naval exploration;
*No Liberty or Piety policy;
*Probably no Great Library;
*Maybe go for a different VC than Domination?

Liberty, Piety and Great Library have been in all SG's I've followed, so I think it's good to make a break from that, not to make decisions for future SG's but at least this one.

For rules:
*No worker stealing (declaring war on a CS for the sole reason to grab a worker);
*No settling on resources - unless it's a one-tile island or so;
*No selling resources and declaring war straight after (I need to look up what we said about this at the end of the last SG; I think we need to set a minimum amount of turns).

Personally I just got last week, and haven't had the chance to play all that much really, so I'm not up to scratch with all the new elements. I'm hoping for some team members to have more experience than I do!
Religion seems rather strong is my first impression, but I'm not sure yet what to do with missionaries and spies - hopefully I'll learn a few things from this SG.

It seems with Religion we need to decide from the outset which way we want to go, like with Social Policies. If some of you have already played a few games with Gods & Kings, please don't be afraid to share your insights!

DLC's we'll probably turn off, to make the game compatible with as many people's game as possible. We could pre-select some of the new civs that came with the expansion if that what's we want, I'm undecided myself on that.

As always, I appreciate input and discussion before a new SG is a go!

 

[grandad1982]

Word.

I haven't been playing much civ recently (mostly CK2 and EU3) but I have been thinking an SG would be the way to get my fix I want!

I have played a bit of G&K but I wouldn't say I was totally on the ball features wise.

Since the buffed Tradition I'm more than happy to go down that route. Or Honour as I rarely ever use it and would like to learn how to do so properly.

As for civs and map types I guess we're looking at new civs? Before we went with no DLC other than Mongolia I think. Things like the Dutch on small continents or the Carthaginian's on archipelago with low sea (more snakey continets/islands than small islands) might be nice.

If we rule out Domination I would still want to leave it check as a possible VC because the AI can strive for it (yeah right...).

Religion is something we would need to decide to get early if we want our own otherwise just letting it spread to us is fine. Getting our own would be more fun IMO. Its not really possible to say much on this till we have a civ, and a map.

The only thing we may need to worry about is the upcoming patch ruining our game....

EDIT: Oh yeah, I'm in. As ever I hope my RL commitments don't get in the way!

 

[gozpel]

Nice!

I've played around a fair bit and the AI is better at wars now, on landmasses. Still pretty stupid on watermaps. New units and stuff early is interesting, but religion is the thing. I'll expand on that later.

SP's: I'm still grinding the Liberty tree, so I need a way to break away from that. So Tradition and Honor would be fun, with a little bit of Commerce and Order later...or whatever.

Of the new civs I'm pretty fond of the Celts and Byzantine. Boudicca gets 2 faith if the Cap is surrounded by 3 or more forests, which means you have the first pantheon on turn 5! Or turn 10 if there is only 1 forest, still good. Byz have one extra pantheon, the only civ with that bonus and that can be huge in the right conditions.

But on an archi-map, religions aside, Carthage with their free harbours means you don't need to build any roads, it's massive! Their unit Quintrireme is a basher, just ok when I compare it to Byz's Dromon, which is a great range-ship.

So religion: On a watermaps with lots and lots of fish and waterluxes, there is a pantheon that gives 1 hammer per resource and another one that give 2 beakers for every traderoute, don't remember the names, but they are good. Others that are situational, faith for desert-tiles or culture for clear tundra-tiles. Lots of choices all over the place. If you're defensive, cities bombardment is 30% stronger and so on.

IF you get the first religion, you can choose things like 1 happy per city holding this religion or 2gpt for the same, this means ALL cities yours and the AI's. This is where byzantine shines, if they win the race. If you just get the first one though, after a long struggle for happiness, if you choose the happiness belief, then you're usually good for the rest of the game.

I wouldn't go higher than Emperor in the first game, I usually just play on King for the fun, but play higher when the mood is right and it more of a struggle now, than before.

Also RA's are now at Education and you have to be friends with the civ before you can sign it. So a fair few changes overall.

And of course I'm in!

 

[JohannaK]

I have G&K since... well, several months ago, but I haven't really played it. On the other hand, water maps are my kind of maps, and whatever we choose I'm sure we can do great at it. Especially with Carthage, thanks to what gozpel said.

On Religion, really, I've only actually played one game which is still halfway completion, and I haven't been able to fully explore its possibilities, but it surely can help greatly in certain situation, and Carthage has synergy with that trade routes belief.

And of course I'd like to be in.

 

[Brichals]

Hey guys, I was waiting for this. You can count me in. I've played a few games of G+K. Tradition and tall is how I normally play, I think liberty has got harder in G+K because the AI punishes fast expansion more than ever. I think a tradition or honour game would be good since our last games were a bit samey.

Grandad has a good point on the patch, if only we knew when it will drop. If the AI learns to pillage then Immortal could be a big challenge. I think you can repel any attacks but if you are then left with no upgraded land I think it's hard to catch any runaways.

 

[Optional]

Ignorance is bliss; I didn't even know about a patch coming. It's because I stayed away from Civ and the forums for months, partly forced, as a patch bugged my game, but also I didn't mind not playing Civ (didn't play any other game as well).

Yeah, this news about a patch leaves us again with a lot of uncertainty. The patch notes are detailed, in the past they only gave those detailed notes at the time of release of the patch itself, so that's making you think the patch is just around the corner, but they're also saying they're planning it for this fall, which could mean they're trying to get it out the door before Christmas...
We could be think positive of the nature of the patch, though. The previous patches that ruined existing saves had such intensive surgery as a complete reworking of happiness, or the introduction of a new resource which shuffled up all the existing resources as well. I don't see anything as disruptive as that in the current notes. Even though it's a huge patch we might still be okay if it comes during our game. I think we should just bite the bullet?

About the game then, yes, for civ I was thinking about the Netherlands, Carthage or Byzantium; them being Seafaring and new. Carthage is the most seafaring one of these, with indeed a good special. Nice to get some sea resources in the start with them.
A Religion isn't too hard to get, judging from my first experiences on Immortal, although to be first is unlikely to happen if you're playing a civ without a Religious bonus. But picking Pottery first and immediately starting on a Shrine seems a good way to become second or so on a small map, which would still give plenty of options.
We do indeed need to decide early on what we will do build-wise. Before Gods & Kings it was all Liberty and Monuments, but now with Religion and Shrines the possibilities are very different. We're likely to go Tradition, so we must also decide from the start when we will time or free culture buildings. With Siam we postponed and went with free Wats, obviously, this time we might want free Monuments from the start, also to free up hammers for Shrines? I don't want to get ahead of the game, though, we first need to decide on some game and map settings.

There would be something to say for a small map, I think; the game seems to have become more complex with the new game elements, especially if we're developing relationships with City States, a small map would offer enough complexity.
There's more going on with the City States now, if we want to explore that part of Gods & Kings as well we could consider a Diplomatic VC. It might be tricky for an SG, I think for a team it's much easier to handle Domination, but to explore the changes made in Gods & Kings more fully it would make sense going Diplomatic. At least it should be a bit quicker than Spaceship.

That's probably enough suggestions for one post, I'll take a shower now...

 

[JohannaK]

Diplo was my first win in Civ5

It's easy to get, as long as you have lots of money
But this has fortunately changed.

 

[grandad1982]

Shall we get a vote or at least a definite short list of civs?

I make the likely civs:

Carthage (seems most popular so far)
Netherlands
Byzantium
Celts

Any other suggestions? If we wanted a non G&K civ Ottamans could be a possible, however I think a new civ would be more fun.

What DLC do people have?

 

[JohannaK]

I say not Celts. We're going for a seafaring civ, ain't we?

 

[Optional]

It are all just suggestions, but somebody has to throw the ball up... (Oh, I'm responding to a previous post by JoanK, I see a few new posts have been added in the meantime).

Very welcome all of you to the SG, we have a team! 5 players is ideal, my rule of thumb is that I never say no to a 6th player, but for one SG 6 players would be the max. Although, if we get way too many for one SG, we can just start up two at the same time just as we did last time, so there's no need for interested players to hold back at this stage.

Here are a couple of examples of possible map types, considering Grandad's suggestions; what you see is that how lower you make the sea level with archipelago, the more it tends to become like a snaky Pangaea (I'm not suggesting to go with the modified Pelago, but it's interesting to see what effect the sea level has on a specific map type).
Small Continents has usually more solid land masses:

Spoiler :

 

[Optional]

I have a strong preference for a Seafaring civ, I'm not too fuzzed which one. Celts make it easy to go Religious, but it's not like you can't play Religious with another civ, it'll just take a little more effort.

I think the Netherlands and Byzantium might not have a coastal start bias (not sure), but you can force a coastal start for any civ. It depends on the map type as well. Small Continents forces all players to start coastal for example.
DLC-wise I think I have everything.

 

[grandad1982]

I can't tell from the screens but does the 62% map have some large bodies of water that are inaccessible from other water bodies?

 

[grandad1982]

Netherlands has a marsh bias (polders) which can slow the start down a bit. No idea about Byzantium.

If you played an archipelago style map then your going to get a coastal star regardless.

 

[NotSure]

Looks like I'm too late? If so, I'll throw myself in as a replacement in case someone drops out.

 

[gozpel]

It's not that it's hard to get a religion, it's that if you're third or fourth founding, the good pantheons could be taken. Not that it really matters, it was only my view of it.

I like archipelagos with low waterlevel, there is always a chance that we have another AI on the same landmass, which could make an interesting start. As for a start, I ALWAYS build a scout, even 2 on larger maps. Always! Then a shrine and since I'm stuck in Liberty still, I handbuilt my monuments. I do have trouble with happiness up to 5-6 cities early, but I know how to handle that in the long run.

On archi-maps you always start next to the ocean whatever civ you play, so that shouldn't be a problem. Small map is alright with me, but I never play smaller than standard now, for some reason small feels very crowded, but yet again not a problem for me.

Netherlands is also a civ I enjoy to play, but that's more Fractal maps or small continents then, not archi. And I never really tried out the Sea-Beggar, as I usually start out with 5-6 cities and then only become a builder, as wars are really sharper now on landmasses. If the AI feels overwhelmed, they retreat which is nice, but still a pain in the rear.

I have no bought DLC's.

 

[Optional]

Looks like I'm too late?

I feel like I'm the late one, having only gotten Gods & Kings last week. I'd like to have you in the team, NotSure, and 6 isn't too much. The only thing is that I prefer 10-turn sets then instead of longer (same as last time, but then we also started with 6 players on the roster, one just didn't turn up).
I think I'll throw myself on last spot in the roster, I like to roll the starts, but I rather see someone else do the first turns this time.

As for a start, I ALWAYS build a scout, even 2 on larger maps. Always! Then a shrine...

I'm inclined to interrupt the second scout build for a switch to a Shrine as soon as Pottery finishes. This might make a bit of difference. Also a small map, if that's what we're playing, has less competition for the beliefs, so we could likely do better than 3d or 4th pick if we have a civ without Religion bonus.
I'm fine with Emperor for difficulty. This team can handle Immortal, and on the last Emperor games I never spotted a civ which was challenging, but maybe some of us prefer it that way. I expect the discussions about Religion and such to be interesting regardless of difficulty level, so I'm not going to push for this or that level.
Archipelago low sea level is also fine with me. I've never played Archipelago except for a Civ III SG, so that makes a change.

 

[JohannaK]

I've played several Archipelago games in Civ5, but never played over Emperor, because, I don't play that much, and I have really few games finished. The Askia SG being one of them.

 

[NotSure]

I feel like I'm the late one, having only gotten Gods & Kings last week. I'd like to have you in the team, NotSure, and 6 isn't too much. The only thing is that I prefer 10-turn sets then instead of longer (same as last time, but then we also started with 6 players on the roster, one just didn't turn up).
I think I'll throw myself on last spot in the roster, I like to roll the starts, but I rather see someone else do the first turns this time.

Awesome . I've been hooked on CKII for a while now so I haven't played much CiV either. I did play an islands map with Dido. The free Harbor bonus was even more powerful than I imagined it would be.

Oh, I have all of the DLC now too, thanks to the 75% off Steam sale.

 

[grandad1982]

^^ CK2 is one of the best games of the year IMO.

Well If we're set on map type (low sea level archipelago) and maybe even the civ (Carthage?) I see no reason t not see some starts!

Well apart from advanced settings. Are we having ruins on? I play off but appreciate people like them for the lolz.

 

[Optional]

The game will start without DLC, except for Mongolia and Gods & Kings.

What I remember from previous time is that at least one of us would have liked some interface helper program included, and I said we could look into that. If you have a suggestion, and you know it's compatible with Gods & Kings, then bring it up now!
EDIT: re settings, ruins is default, I've always ran starts with default settings, but we can opt for doing thing differently if the team wants that. With my game it looks like quick combat & movement is also default (or did I pick this once and it's now a remembered setting?), so I suggest that, but if there are people not wanting that...
Yeah, I hope to be able to roll some starts on friday, or will we manage tomorrow? It's definitely time for last minute suggestions and ideas, because we are coming close to a roll!