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Vote on New Polling Rules

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Sommerswerd, Mar 12, 2009.

?

How Many Sponsors Shall Be Required For Us to Conduct a Poll?

Poll closed Mar 22, 2009.
  1. One Person - Anybody can ask for a poll, no second needed

    8.3%
  2. Two Persons - Any requests for a poll will require someone to second the request

    41.7%
  3. Three Persons - Any requests for a poll will require at least two sponsors

    25.0%
  4. Four Persons - Any requests for a poll will require at least 3 sponsors

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Just leave Polling up to the Internal Affairs Minister

    25.0%
  1. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,421
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    This poll concerns our polling rules:crazyeye:

    Originally there were no rules... Anyone could post a poll at any time about anything. After a particularly bitter polling episode we refer to as "Potterygate," it was decided that we would avoid polling altogether, unless absolutely necessary.

    Eventually it was suggested that one team member be responsible for deciding when we should conduct polls... The Internal Affairs Minister. I have recently taken over that position for the team.

    As of now, we don't have many polling rules and the Internal Affairs Miniter (me:)) is responsible for trying to decide when it would be beneficial to conduct a poll. I think that periodic polling on different issues makes the game more interesting and more fun, especially for new or casual members.;)

    I will leave this poll open for a long time so that as many team members as possible have an opportunity to vote... However, the one lesson learned from "Potterygate" was this...

    ONCE YOU HAVE CAST YOUR VOTE, DO NOT POST ON THE POLL THREAD TO SAY YOU ARE CHANGING VOTES. VOTE CHANGING IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. ALL VOTES ARE FINAL.

    Also, please try to limit your posts on this poll to ONE POST. Additional comments arguments, etc., should go in the general "Polls" thread.:goodjob:

    We will have a runoff poll between the top 2 choices, unless there is an obvious overwhelming majority for one of the choices. Overwhelming majority means, that if everyone who did not vote for the winning choice were to vote for the runner up choice, the runner up would still lose.

    Happy Polling!!!:D
     
  2. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,451
    Location:
    London
    And how do we decide how many poll options we have? Shouldn't it be that we have a poll if at least 2 people support a particular course of action and at least 2 support another one? or 1 or whatever
     
  3. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,608
    I hope we aren't going to get to get too far into the weeds with this, voting on every aspect of how to take a vote :lol:

    How bout we all just agree to follow democratic principles with majority rule and the rights of the minority to voice dissent and have their say. If things get really sticky about procedure we just reference Roberts Rules of Order.
     
  4. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    I think if a minority of 2 people want to mobilize the silent majority, they are welcome to call for a poll. The reason for this is the way certain players comment other players strategies with ridicule and a condescending attitude, and that should not be a qualifier for decisions. "No test", "you got no clue" and so on are not valid indicators for the support of a certain action, only a poll is when two sides disagree, and I will not accept undue attempts to silence dissenting voices, if they can mobilize enough proven support. A poll can be much easier than numerous verbose reposts to get your will through by the means of exhaustion, consensus or apathy.
     
  5. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
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    2,608
    I'm completely in favor of polls, if 2 people call for one we should vote. I would only caution that polls can actually be used to circumvent intelligent debate and consensus building, we should use them sparingly.
     
  6. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,894
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Yes. We've come along very nicely this far without polling problems. The cornerstone of our game has been the testing. Let's not let polling distract our energies from testing.
     
  7. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,124
    Location:
    Athens, Greece
    The problem is that as the game progresses, the possible roads/tactics/strategies to follow become more and more.

    It is easier to decide on things at the begging but as the game progresses it becomes more and more difficult.

    At this stage of the game and much more later on, it is very difficult to expalin in a post all the consequences of every action.

    Already we have many different opinions about what to do with each city, what to improve first where to settle etc.

    IMO the only way we will be able to progress is set specific short term goals that the majority agrees on and then test to find the best way to reach our goal.

    having polls on random thoughts that someone might have will not help things.

    Having polls on global goals, like which tech to tech next is helpfull though. But it should be made very clear in the poll thread the advantages and dissadvantages of teching each proposed tech, so that people that are not that much into the hang of things, can read and decide.

    TBH i don't think anyone needs aproval before making a poll...but it should be made clear that the poll has to have specific arguments for and against each option.
     
  8. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,421
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    WARNING!!! Long Post Follows

    With two days left until this poll closes, it seems apparent that a run-off will be necessary. Even one or two votes for a particular choice will probably not create an "overwhelming majority" (see post 1 of this thread).

    A recent statement by the Don is especially relevant to this particular poll. Don said:
    Although this poll is not exactly what the Don mentioned, it is very closely related IMO. This poll will establish a concrete, predictable rule about what issues we will poll.

    To prepare everyone for the run-off, let me explain in more detail how each of the options would affect our polling process... I probably should have done this in the beginning... My apologies:( Better late than never I hope:D

    Choice: Just Leave Polling Up to The Internal Affairs Minister
    Right now, the way our polling works, is the Internal Affairs Minister (me:)) reads the forums and decides when we should have a poll, based on what polls are being requested/ what else folks are saying / not saying / in-game & other circumstances / interest & activity in the forums etc. The bottom line is... its basically a judgment call. To be fair, it might even be described as a unilateral judgment call.

    If this is the system we select, I will generally want to poll our tech choices and city locations... UNLESS there is great outcry (more than 1 or 2 people) against polling the issue, AND/OR no other choices have been discussed or suggested (so we are unanimously in support of a particular choice). Also, if EVERYONE who has posted recently has clearly and unambiguously posted in favor of one option that would dissuade me from wanting to poll the issue. For example: Saying "I support Metal Casting IF we can get Cavalieros to research Aesthetics," is not clear and unambiguous, because the decision could go either way. If ANYONE'S last post on the issue said something like that, I would still want to poll the issue. Anytime there is ANY doubt on how folks might stand on these two issues, I would favor having a poll, just to be sure.

    For other issues, I would only want to poll if a poll was specifically requested by at least two team members.

    If you like this system and want things to stay the way they are, then you should select: Just Leave Polling Up to the Internal Affairs Minister.

    Choice: One Person - Anyone can request a poll, no second needed

    This choice currently only has one vote but I think it is worthy of explanation, just in case...

    This means that anyone on the team can ask for an issue to be polled, and the Internal Affairs Minister (IAM) is obligated to post the Poll, whether the IAM wants to poll the issue or not. This also means however, that the IAM, as a member of the team, can also post any poll that they want, regardless of whether other team members want the poll.

    This main difference between this system and the IAM-controlled system, is that polls do not need to be approved by anyone... It is very similar to letting folks post their own polls, except that since you have one person responsible for posting all the polls, there will be some uniformity, clarity, advance notice, etc... but essentially, this poll allows folks to get any poll they want. This option will definitely result in the most polls occuring by far IMO.

    If you like this system, you should select: One Person - Anyone can request a Poll, No seconds Needed

    Choices: Two Persons - Any request for a poll Will require A Team Member to Second the Request, Three Persons - Any request for a poll will require at least two sponsors, Four Persons - Any request for a poll will require at least three sponsors

    The remaining choices require one team member (including the IAM) to request the poll, and different team member(s) (including the IAM) to second / sponsor the request. If the required number of team members request the poll, the IAM is obligated to post the poll, regardless of whether the IAM wants the poll, and regardless of whether other members of the team want the poll. The more team members that are required to request a poll, the more difficult it will be to get a poll posted.

    Therefore, if you want there to be polls more often, you should select: Two Persons, If you want polls less frequently, you should select Three Persons or Four Persons

    Once this rule is in place, we will have a clear policy on how we decide whether polls will be conducted. This is the reason that this was the first poll I posted. I also set a long timer on the poll, to give as many people as possible a chance to vote, but also to let team members observe the polling process in action and develop an informed opinion about how we want polls to work going forward.

    I look forward to hearing your thoughts... Run-off poll will be posted as soon as this poll closes (March 22)
     
  9. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

    Joined:
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    If we're going to make a rule to define when we can have polls then this is the rule we should have. (Yes, Sommers, that one vote was mine and this is not a sarcastic remark.) If we want maximum participation then we all need equal rights and an equal opportunity to have our voice heard. Anyone of us (even those who want to poll every city build and every next tech) should have the right to call for a poll. No one (or no minority block) should be able to veto a poll.

    For the record I am against any kind of rule for calling for polls. Can we not use our collective common sense to decide what we need to poll?

    So, Sommerswerd, what if we're not in the "I want more polls" OR the "I want less polls" category? Then how do we vote? :confused: Have you ever considered that there might be some of us who value quality over quantity? Ever stop to think that if you asked some us how many polls we should have you might get an answer like "as many as we need". I for one do not want less polls if that interferes with our decision making process. Nor do I want more polls if they are not needed for a decision and distract us. Try to think outside the poll Sommerswerd. What you are attempting to do here impacts the voice of each of us on the team and I dare say such a rule is unnecessary. Whether we have a particular poll should be based on whether we need the poll to make the decision or not and we figure that out by talking about it as a team. Simple as that.

    You've done a fine job on the mechanics of posting polls and the work you put into them is very valuable to our team. When it comes time for us to have a poll I'd want no one else on the team handling it. If I wanted something polled I'd go to you to conduct the poll. I don't want to lose the right to ask for a poll and I don't think we should deprive any team member of that right. All I ask is that we make as many decisions as possible through discussion and testing and reserve polling for the times when we can't otherwise reach a decision. This means no automatic polls (like every time we build a city or every time we chose a new tech).

    I object to a run off poll as soon as this one is closed. Give us some time to discuss the matter. Discussion is generally more productive than polls.
     
  10. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    We all seem to have different ideas about what rule we should have. That's why a run-off is necessary. The only option that theoretically allows a "veto" of a poll is the IAM-controlled polls option. All the others compell a poll if the required number of persons request one, so there is no veto.

    The problem is... what is "collective" in terms of numbers? How many team mates should want a poll before we have one? By your vote and your first statements in you last post, you seem to say that any one of us should all be able to ask for any poll we want... That seems to contradict the idea that we should decide collectively. I am not throwing barbs here... I genuinely do not see any way to reconcile an "absolute individual right" to request a poll with a "collective common sense" approach. It seems to me that we have to quantify "collective." How many requests make the poll "collective?

    This is an excellent question Don:) and related to your quoted statement above.. AND the answer is simple IMO. You should choose "Four persons." Why? because if four members of the team want a poll, that is the closest thing to "collective" that you can acheive. To me, if only one or two people want a poll, that is not collective. Collective means alot of team members. So if you want collective decisions on whether to poll, you should select the option that calls for the most possible sponsors.

    Thanks Don:) That's very kind of you to say:D

    OK we can hold off a little before doing a run-off, but remember the poll does not close for another 2 days, so how long do you think we need to discuss this? FYI "Until we reach a decision without polling is not a very satisfying answer" IMO.
     

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