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Vote to overturn the Council Vote

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Multi-site Demo Game: High Council' started by Hygro, Sep 23, 2003.

?

Shall we Abolish the Council Vote?

  1. Yes

    7 vote(s)
    43.8%
  2. No

    9 vote(s)
    56.3%
  1. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    If we havea 24 hour poll, and the council votes within 20 hours in the poll, and some of the players can vote as well, then its even better than just the Council Vote.
     
  2. Gingerbread Man

    Gingerbread Man Dark Magus

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    well, how about a 24hr poll where everyone can vote, and the will of the people goes, but if more than three executives decide to veto the decision, the decision is not passed.

    So pretty much, the people who see the 24hr poll vote, and option A passes. But lets say the pressy, foreign minister, domestic advisor and science advisor all disagree with the result VERY strongly. I dont just mean their opinions differ, but rather they know such a result in a poll would greatly disadvantage the nation. If those four execs decide to veto the choice, it cannot pass.

    this shifts the balance of power to the people, but the executive still are able to offer protection to the nation. Because if we dont allow any veto power, a bunch of know-nothing lurkers (or possibly spies) could crash the poll, and make a terrible decision on the rest of the team's behalf. The better part of the team may turn up only to find an absurd matter passed. We want at least the peace of mind that the leaders you voted in - because you trusted them - are in control in an emergency, and not just anybody who visited our forum that day and saw a cool poll.

    So yes, council votes should be removed, but not completely. The executive should still have the ability to keep the nation in control, instead of letting it get wildly off track.
     
  3. Ankka

    Ankka Chieftain

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    Good thinking. I sort of maybe even like the idea... :)
     
  4. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    That idea is good because it keeps votes like Octavian's 3 vote thing for a treaty that people didn't actually want (mind you it was a fluke and it didn't make sense how people actually missed it).
     
  5. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Warlord Super Moderator

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    I think that would be a good idea. I would be supportive of a measure like that.
     
  6. Vander

    Vander Privateering in Idaho

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    I too would like this alot better. I would feel like more of a contributor to this game.
     
  7. Ankka

    Ankka Chieftain

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    Yeah, as I think of it, it really makes a lot of sense. The government still has power, even as the votes will be open.

    Great idea, GBM! :thumbsup:
     
  8. Gingerbread Man

    Gingerbread Man Dark Magus

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    Here are the constitution articles in question:
    Look, and amnend!
     
  9. Gingerbread Man

    Gingerbread Man Dark Magus

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    May I suggest changing Article M, 5 to:
    Code:
    All appointments must be approved by a public poll lasting 
    at least 2 days, or 24 hours in situations deemed urgent. The 
    outcome of the poll may be vetoed by a majority of the executive 
    (> 50%) if the outcome of the poll was in some way unfair, 
    biased, misguided, or causing damage to Fanatikou.
    And article O to:
    Code:
    Article O. Treaties with foreign nation may be ratified by 
    Fanatikou in one of three manners:
    
    In matters of urgent national security the President may apply to 
    the MSDG administration for additional time. He/she will then post a
     24hr public poll, the ouctcome of which will be the action taken in
     the situation. The outcome may be vetoed by the majority (>
     50%) of the executive.
    
    If there is no time for a 24hr poll, the president may make a
     decision on behalf of the nation. There must be at least one
     witness at the time. The decision may be investigated if an
     investigation is necessary.
    
    In treaties involving relations with foreign nations, such as
     alliances, non-agression pacts, peace treaties, and declarations
     of war, a public poll running at least 48 hours must be held, the 
    outcome of which is the action taken. The outcome may be 
    vetoed by a majority (> 50%) of the executive.
    Still needs lots of refinement. At the moment it is a little scrappy, and beurocratic.
     
  10. Ankka

    Ankka Chieftain

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    Going into the right direction. :)
     
  11. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Warlord Super Moderator

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    Looks pretty good. I have some suggestions though.

    Perhaps you could eliminate all of the parts about executive vetoes from the current proposal, and instead create Article P and place them there. Here's an idea for that article:
    Code:
    [i]Article P.[/i] The Executive Council may veto the outcome of polls related to the 
    confirmation of appointees, foreign relations, and trades if the outcome of the poll 
    was in some way biased, unfair, misguided, or causing damage to Fanatikou.  Any member
     of the Executive Council may initiate a veto, and the support of a majority of the 
    Executive Council is required to veto the outcome of the poll.
    Also, I would like to suggest that the O.2 proposal be changed a bit so that there are fewer investigations. Here's my suggestion for that:
    Code:
    If there is no time for a 24hr poll, the president may make a
     decision on behalf of the nation. The Justice of the Court must
     agree that it is a matter of extremely urgent national security.
      If the Justice is not available, the President may make the 
    decision on his own in the presence of at least one witness.  
    The decision may be investigated if an investigation is necessary.
     
  12. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    I like Bootstoots tweaks on Gingerbread Man's amendment.
     
  13. Gingerbread Man

    Gingerbread Man Dark Magus

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    I like I like!

    so that would make M.5:
    All appointments must be approved by a public poll lasting
    at least 2 days, or 24 hours in situations deemed urgent.


    Article O:
    Article O. Treaties with foreign nation may be ratified by
    Fanatikou in one of three manners:

    In matters of urgent national security the President may apply to the MSDG administration for additional time. He/she will then post a 24hr public poll, the ouctcome of which will be the action taken in the situation.

    If there is no time for a 24hr poll, the president may make a decision on behalf of the nation. The Justice of the Court must agree that it is a matter of extremely urgent national security. If the Justice is not available, the President may make the decision on his own in the presence of at least one witness. The decision may be investigated if an investigation is necessary.

    In treaties involving relations with foreign nations, such as
    alliances, non-agression pacts, peace treaties, and declarations
    of war, a public poll running at least 48 hours must be held, the
    outcome of which is the action taken.


    And the new article P to:
    Article P. The Executive Council may veto the outcome of polls related to the
    confirmation of appointees, foreign relations, and trades or a 24 hour poll if the
    outcome of the poll was in some way biased, unfair, misguided, or causing damage to
    Fanatikou. Any member of the Executive Council may initiate a veto, and the support
    of a majority of the Executive Council is required to veto the outcome of the poll.


    dont forget that 24hr polls are the main reason we are allowing veto.
     
  14. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Warlord Super Moderator

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    Looks great to me. :D
     
  15. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    I really think we're attempting to overcomplicate a simple matter. If anything, we need a looser constitution, not more rules and regulations. In retrospect, I regret psuhing to add the article on treaty ratification.

    The key for us is streamlining everything. We play on a regular timetable, at a pace where we really can't afford to spend an excessive time on making decisions. In fact, simply so we didn't spend so much time and worry on them, I'd push for the parliamentary-style terms of Apolyton and GCA: officials stay in office until they're voted out, with no regular elections. But that's a different matter.

    Still, whatever changes that are thought to be necessary, I urge that they be made ones that uncomplicate the process. Simple and fast is good.
     
  16. Gingerbread Man

    Gingerbread Man Dark Magus

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    Well, we are just making things simpler. By requiring less council votes, we are saving ourselves time.

    The only real extra, unstreamlined addition is the need of a witness to a presidential decision.
     
  17. Ankka

    Ankka Chieftain

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    Yeah. This IS simpler than before. It just sounds more complicated. So let it be as GBM and Boots said, IMHO.
     

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