Voting is Undemocratic

HoloDoc

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I thought this from The Guardian this morning was interesting.

Warning, this is a long article.

Voting undermines the will of the people - it's time to replace it with sortition

Our representative form of government divides us but installing ordinary people at the heart of power would be transformative

In his new book The Future of Everything: Big audacious ideas for a better world, the author Tim Dunlop examines the vast technological shifts reshaping our world and considers how we use these shifts to create a better quality of life for all. He explores how the media, wealth creation, work, education and – in this edited extract – the way we are governed could be transformed.

If we want to fix the way our governments work, the first thing we should do is replace voting with sortition in at least some of our governing bodies. Sortition means to choose – to “sort” – by the use of lots; that is, by random sample, like the method we use to choose jurors for a court case. Instead of voting for members of parliament or congress, we should choose at least some of them randomly. It is the most straightforward way of enabling ordinary citizens to participate in the running of their country, and the effect it would have on politics and government would be transformative.

Most of us think of voting as the cornerstone of a true democracy. When a new country in the developing world moves towards democracy, we tend to judge its initial success by how soon it is able to hold “free and fair” elections. We rejoice in this coming of age. Indeed, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights presents voting as one of our fundamental rights: “The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.”
But this is the whole problem: voting has come to actively undermine “the will of the people” and we need a system that will restore their primacy. Sortition is that system.

Voting as a way of choosing politicians dates to the 18th century, the time of the American and French revolutions, and there is little doubt that the leaders of these revolutions chose voting precisely as a means of exerting elite control over the political process. Indeed, until relatively recently, only an elite of land-owning white men were allowed to vote. Even as we have fought to remove those sorts of restrictions, representative government, which has become the norm in most modern democracies, has degenerated into a way for elites to maintain control over the “democratic” process, because it is the elites – or those willing to represent the interests of elites – who are most likely to have the time and resources to ensure they are elected. If you doubt this, consider how you would fare if you decided to run for office at the next election.

The first question that arises when we transfer this process to the level of national or state government is: are we, as ordinary citizens, really up to it?

It is a common belief among the elites of most democracies, those who have and are used to wielding power in various ways, that ordinary people, the lay citizens of democracy, are either disengaged from and apathetic about politics, or are so ignorant of how it works that they should not be let anywhere near the levers of power.

Many elites believe we are both disengaged and ignorant. From the time of Plato’s Republic, they have worried about “mob rule” and the rise of a polity so governed by their base desires that good government is impossible. The modern equivalent of this ancient anxiety is often aimed at social media, which is held up as evidence of the unruliness of the democratic mob.

Others express the view that the problem is “too much” democracy. Conservative journalist Andrew Sullivan, in a piece for New York Magazine (“Democracies end when they are too democratic”), quotes Plato’s concerns about mob rule, while praising the “large, hefty barriers” created by the American founding fathers “between the popular will and the exercise of power”. He writes with approval of the various ways in which the popular will was constrained. “Voting rights were tightly circumscribed”, he notes, and that for “a very long time, only the elites of the political parties came to select their candidates at their quadrennial conventions”.

Of course, this sort of contempt is a self-fulfilling prophecy in that the institutions of democratic participation are constructed in such a way as to exclude citizen participation – or make it extremely difficult or uncomfortable – and this lack of involvement is then offered as evidence of citizens’ lack of interest in politics. The same happens with public debate on contentious issues. Excluded from mainstream institutions and from any sort of hands-on control of government processes – other than being able to vote intermittently, or to have their opinions aggregated into soundbites by polling companies – citizens use the new platforms of social media to express their frustrations. This relatively unregulated form of public speech can certainly degenerate into unedifying exchanges, but these are then taken as conclusive evidence of the unsuitability of ordinary people to participate at all. So having accused us of being disengaged, these elites hold up our actual engagement via social media as an excuse for exclusion. It is as if I called you useless for not being able to drive a car without ever giving you the opportunity to learn how.

One of the main reasons we are losing faith in our government’s ability to solve major problems is because our political system is designed to exclude ordinary people. Yes, we get to vote for members of parliament and we thus get a say in who governs us. But individual politicians are largely under the control of political parties, and political parties have their own agendas which are, in turn, under the influence of other players, particularly the rich and powerful. Once elected, politicians pay lip service to reflecting the will of the people, but we-the-people rarely feel that they are really doing this. There is something pat and predetermined in how most politicians will respond to the matters that come before them that makes the whole process seem, from a citizen’s point of view, farcical.

Writing in The Conversation (‘The proposed Senate voting change will hurt Australian democracy’), political scientist John Dryzek hits the nail on the head: “Australia’s federal parliament is today … not a deliberative assembly [but] rather a theatre of expression where politicians from different sides talk past each other in mostly ritual performance. Party politicians do not listen, do not reflect and do not change their minds.” As Dryzek suggests, the essence of good deliberation – the chief metric of its success – is whether or not those involved are willing and able to change their minds. True deliberation arises only when people come together as equals and deal openly with all the factual and emotional elements that go into making hard decisions. Party politics increasingly crowds out the ability of politicians to do this.

I propose that we create a new chamber of parliament that I’ll call the People’s House. What makes it different it from other houses of parliament is that its members will be chosen by lottery, or sortition. Any adult citizen could at some stage of their lives be called on to serve in the People’s House in the same way that we may all be called upon to serve on a jury. Instead of deciding the outcome of a criminal trial, the members of the People’s House will deliberate and vote on legislation, and therefore decide how to run the country.

In polities around the world, there is now a substantial body of work involving so-called citizens’ juries, deliberative polls or other forms of elite–popular discussion. They show very clearly that a house of parliament populated by ordinary citizens chosen by sortition could work, and work well. A deliberative poll, for example, attempts to inform opinion by providing the opportunity for wide public discussion among those polled. This is done by bringing together a representative sample of the population – selected by a polling company – for two days at a central venue where they can discuss the issues with each other in small groups, as well as put questions to a panel of experts who represent a range of opinions on the topic at hand.

A deliberative poll was held in 1998 on the topic of whether Australia should become a republic. According to Issues Deliberation Australia, which ran the poll, “Australians were jumping at the chance to be involved … a final sample of 347 representative Australians arrived in Canberra on October 22nd, 47 more than our original goal.”

This high turnout attests to the fact that participants perceived the issue to be important and the forum to be credible. Ordinary citizens revelled in the chance to question the various experts gathered for their benefit, and as their confidence grew, they were quite willing to challenge the information they were being given.

Such forums cannot abolish the division of intellectual labour – lay people don’t suddenly become experts – but they can make discussion between experts and non-experts more equal. As such, the forum potentially does much more than improve the public’s general and specific knowledge of the issue at hand: it provides a forum of cooperation and deliberation that helps engender trust and respect among participants. It tends to break down, from both sides, the tendency for experts and non-experts to view each other as adversaries – where the experts view the citizens as merely ignorant and a slate to be written upon, and where the citizens view the experts as an elite merely asserting the power that arises from superior knowledge. Those operating as experts in this environment are not simply articulating their own views in a way that a lay audience can easily understand. They are making available their knowledge for a lay audience to reach their own conclusions about the issue.

The lessons we learn from these experiences with deliberative democracy is that extending them into a more formal and permanent part of our governing process is worth thinking about seriously, and any claims that such a concept could never work because ordinary people are disengaged or apathetic should be treated with the contempt that these examples suggest they deserve.

If we are really serious about bottom-up reform of our democratic institutions, then reforming the seat of government itself in this way, a way that installs ordinary people at the heart of power, is essential. Our neoliberal economy and the representative form of government that dominates our societies do everything they can to divide us from and pit us against each other. A People’s House transcends these divisions and brings us together. The basic concept of sortition is pretty straight-forward, and introducing it as a replacement for voting in, say, the Australian Senate, while leaving that body’s other powers intact, represents, at least administratively, fairly minimalist change. But on every other level, the potential effect is explosive. In one fell swoop, you diminish the power of the parties and that of many of the lobbyists who exist to influence their decisions. You transform the way in which the media covers politics. You hand control of at least part of the legislative process to a genuinely representative sample of the population as whole, rather than vesting it in a bunch of elites and their representatives. You empower people in a way that the current system could never hope to do, and you reconnect our chief democratic institution with the life in common.

Nothing is going to change until the main source of power in our society, our seat of government, is populated by people who are genuinely representative of the society at large. We have been taught forever that the way to do that is by voting, but that is simply wrong, and the quicker we unlearn it the better, no matter how counterintuitive it might seem at first. If you want a truly representative government of, by and for the people, then you need to choose it not by voting, but by sortition.

Now, that is power.
Tldr: Voting has been captured by vested interests and is run by elites, we should draw lots by socio-economic groups to create a new House of Parliament.

Discuss the pros and cons of this proposal. There will be a test.

Honestly, I just want to know what people think of this. I have an opinion, but I don't want to bias the discussion by going into it yet. I've heard of the Athenian model of drawing lots to fill positions, but was unaware of all the history behind sortition until I read this article and looked into it.
 
The power of the rich is a bane on our political systems. The Americans, for example, can't institute sensible welfare state policies that a major part of the country support because of the power of such plutocrats over the parties. But we live in societies quite a lot more complex than the one Athenians found themselves in. In the current political climate various identity groups would have to be lotted seats to satisfy demands of perceived equality.
 
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AI Polity
 
I'm having trouble keeping focus on this because of a short story I read somewhere...a utopian society has a gigantic AI to manage pretty much everything, but it lacks the "human quality." So every...however long the term is...it selects the 'representative' person, chosen for being the closest to the absolute societal mean, and uses them to inform the millions of decisions that it has to make that have some sort of moral component. The responsibility pretty much leaves the selected person a burnt out husk at the end of their term.

The reason this seems apt is that these lot drawn legislatures are going to be filled with people who really don't want the job and are ill prepared for the responsibility. Is that fair to them? Is it really wise?
 
"21 year old neonazi becomes mayor at the city hall lottery" doesn't sound great, but neither do Trump, Duterte, Bolsonaro, Salvini, etc. The problem is IMO a problem of competence. We may rant about our incompetent politicians but they usually pass some kind of bar for intelligence and knowledge of the problems they'll be facing in office. That's usually not true of average joe.
 
"21 year old neonazi becomes mayor at the city hall lottery" doesn't sound great, but neither do Trump, Duterte, Bolsonaro, Salvini, etc. The problem is IMO a problem of competence. We may rant about our incompetent politicians but they usually pass some kind of bar for intelligence and knowledge of the problems they'll be facing in office. That's usually not true of average joe.

Well, if you look at cities like the one I live in, which has a 'contractual structure,' you get around that problem to a degree, though it may create another. My city has a mayor, who is nothing more than the member of the city council who chairs their meetings and signs their paperwork. The city council, collectively and by vote, provides 'direction and decision' to the city manager, who is hired to be the chief executive of the city staff.

On some level, the city council, including the mayor, don't really do much of anything. The city staff, under the direction of the city manager really run everything. But direction and decision is all very carefully laid out in the responsibilities of the city manager. If the city records office is running out of space he can't just go buy a building, or rent one, or decide which records need to be thrown out, he has to inform the council of the problem and present the various options and request a decision from them. So, really, they don't need much in the way of knowledge or experience, they just need to be willing to pay attention and assess the options presented. If the council were drawn by lot rather than election it would probably work just as well, if not better, than what we have now in terms of knowledge. The council also, usually in response to harassment by constituent or constituents, can provide directions that were not asked for, like "bring us some sort of plans for dealing with the pothole situation in front of this guy's house so he doesn't keep showing up and raving at us during council meetings."

The problem would be that people drawn by lot may well not have wanted the job at all. I mean, not as in "I didn't really want to have this job," but "I very much wanted not to have this job." Such conscripts may look at the city manager and say "yeah, whatever, leave me alone." That really wouldn't work. But if you institute some plan to avoid the conscripts you are opening up opportunities for manipulation.
 
How bout a large and representing sample is used to vote each issue.
 
How bout a large and representing sample is used to vote each issue.

Totally unwieldy. Most issues are, frankly, mundane. At a city council meeting they are dispatched en masse. Some reasonable term, with reasonable compensation for time and effort, then a new drawing, would be the way to go. Some sort of overlapping term so that you don't have the entire legislature turning over at the same time and no one knowing what the heck is going on.

Also, there are no individual issues. At the end of the day the ultimate responsibility is the budget, and what gets added in here has to have a balancing removal somewhere. If you present one representative sample with "should the state buy this gigantic complex of buildings that will meet all of our administrative needs for every conceivable future, or should we buy this little place here that we will probably outgrow in about ten years?" their decision may be very different if they know that they will have to resolve the hundred conflicts that will be created in trying to fund the one purchase or the couple of conflicts associated with the second.
 
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Well, if you look at cities like the one I live in, which has a 'contractual structure,' you get around that problem to a degree, though it may create another. My city has a mayor, who is nothing more than the member of the city council who chairs their meetings and signs their paperwork. The city council, collectively and by vote, provides 'direction and decision' to the city manager, who is hired to be the chief executive of the city staff.

On some level, the city council, including the mayor, don't really do much of anything. The city staff, under the direction of the city manager really run everything. But direction and decision is all very carefully laid out in the responsibilities of the city manager. If the city records office is running out of space he can't just go buy a building, or rent one, or decide which records need to be thrown out, he has to inform the council of the problem and present the various options and request a decision from them. So, really, they don't need much in the way of knowledge or experience, they just need to be willing to pay attention and assess the options presented. If the council were drawn by lot rather than election it would probably work just as well, if not better, than what we have now in terms of knowledge. The council also, usually in response to harassment by constituent or constituents, can provide directions that were not asked for, like "bring us some sort of plans for dealing with the pothole situation in front of this guy's house so he doesn't keep showing up and raving at us during council meetings."

The problem would be that people drawn by lot may well not have wanted the job at all. I mean, not as in "I didn't really want to have this job," but "I very much wanted not to have this job." Such conscripts may look at the city manager and say "yeah, whatever, leave me alone." That really wouldn't work. But if you institute some plan to avoid the conscripts you are opening up opportunities for manipulation.

You mention the city manager and his city staff.
The specialists doing the actual work directed at high level by the voted for people.

The article does not mention the specialists in its situation description.
Reality is that our government is a hybrid of many influencing factors, on policies and efectiveness, specialists among them and also recognised as valuable in polls.
In polls representative democracies score mostly highest, but when asked other structures, governments run by specialists score high as well, often also highest. Other structures strongman, direct democracy, etc can score also high.

Politicians and for this example a median Joe, are like no-content managers. They can have ideas on directions to be taken but have in general no clue how much it will cost and what other, former policies will lose (assuming that the financial budget stays the same).
Meaning that for simple changes that have no interactions with other departments, a politician or median Joe, is basically taking decisions where he changes priorities between existing and desired policies.
Do-able, but exhausting, and very difficult for a department staff manager, because at the start of a new term he will have no clue about the full package of balances of his politician or Joe. Especially in the case of a Joe.
With a politician, that department manager will at least have some clues from a party program, or a political track record, that enables proposals in the right ballpark.
When there is an interaction with other departments, financial budget shifts between departments already difficult, but when it is about content overlapping or cross department effects, the complexity explodes.

Fine at small scale community level, but not imo at the responsibility level of a bigger country, or bigger policies.
Big Corporate, your own departments, foreign enemies, splinter groups wanting a strongman, etc..... will eat you up alive.
 
Of course, this sort of contempt is a self-fulfilling prophecy in that the institutions of democratic participation are constructed in such a way as to exclude citizen participation – or make it extremely difficult or uncomfortable – and this lack of involvement is then offered as evidence of citizens’ lack of interest in politics. The same happens with public debate on contentious issues. Excluded from mainstream institutions and from any sort of hands-on control of government processes – other than being able to vote intermittently, or to have their opinions aggregated into soundbites by polling companies – citizens use the new platforms of social media to express their frustrations. This relatively unregulated form of public speech can certainly degenerate into unedifying exchanges, but these are then taken as conclusive evidence of the unsuitability of ordinary people to participate at all. So having accused us of being disengaged, these elites hold up our actual engagement via social media as an excuse for exclusion. It is as if I called you useless for not being able to drive a car without ever giving you the opportunity to learn how.

A horrific statement. The modern obsession with politics needs winding down. Politics are meant to be a mudfest; it's where our worst societal inclinations can go slug it out while leaving the rest of the country alone.

This alone proves the writer doesn't understand what democracy is:

Writing in The Conversation (‘The proposed Senate voting change will hurt Australian democracy’), political scientist John Dryzek hits the nail on the head: “Australia’s federal parliament is today … not a deliberative assembly [but] rather a theatre of expression where politicians from different sides talk past each other in mostly ritual performance. Party politicians do not listen, do not reflect and do not change their minds.” As Dryzek suggests, the essence of good deliberation – the chief metric of its success – is whether or not those involved are willing and able to change their minds. True deliberation arises only when people come together as equals and deal openly with all the factual and emotional elements that go into making hard decisions. Party politics increasingly crowds out the ability of politicians to do this.

The reason we have political assemblies is not for the sake of rationality or 'changing someone's mind'. It is about funneling political divides/sectarianism into a nonviolent avenue. Remove that, and you just shift everything into civil society.

This guy is pro-elitist enough to make any Bolshevik proud. Anyone who emphasizes the importance of making legislation rationality-based is doing it because they imagine it should 'run' the country. Also, look at how he makes his proposal a pre-condition for popular rule being effective; the obvious inference is that it previously wasn't.
 
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Yes, political science has been developing more sophisticated systems for hundreds of years now, but the actual institutions often take the spirit of the year they‘ve been founded (case in point: the american constitution and 1776 or something).

The open question here is about trust. Can we change to „sorting“ or even just „ranking“ instead of direct votes and keep the trust of our population that everything works as intended. Because simple voting is transparent, it is easy to understand and thus to check again. And from this trust comes the legitimacy that we need to implement (unpopular) policies. It‘s kinda comparable to paper money. Only if I trust that the number on the screen is the amount of money I own and that these papers are worth the number printed on it, only then can I use it.
 
Yes, political science has been developing more sophisticated systems for hundreds of years now, but the actual institutions often take the spirit of the year they‘ve been founded (case in point: the american constitution and 1776 or something).

The open question here is about trust. Can we change to „sorting“ or even just „ranking“ instead of direct votes and keep the trust of our population that everything works as intended. Because simple voting is transparent, it is easy to understand and thus to check again. And from this trust comes the legitimacy that we need to implement (unpopular) policies. It‘s kinda comparable to paper money. Only if I trust that the number on the screen is the amount of money I own and that these papers are worth the number printed on it, only then can I use it.


yes
the ability to implement "at first sight/at short term" unpopular policies while keeping the trust, could very well be one of the best indicators to benchmark political systems.

Climate an example of needing gamebraking policies, but of the short term & unpopular kind and long term & inevitable kind.

EDIT
Trust and popularity are far from bering the same and much confused in todays politics.
Political parties during election campaigns and governments governing, buying popularity to a too high degree and by methods bound to erode trust & responsibility, are eroding democracy.
 
You mention the city manager and his city staff.
The specialists doing the actual work directed at high level by the voted for people.

The article does not mention the specialists in its situation description.
Reality is that our government is a hybrid of many influencing factors, on policies and efectiveness, specialists among them and also recognised as valuable in polls.
In polls representative democracies score mostly highest, but when asked other structures, governments run by specialists score high as well, often also highest. Other structures strongman, direct democracy, etc can score also high.

Politicians and for this example a median Joe, are like no-content managers. They can have ideas on directions to be taken but have in general no clue how much it will cost and what other, former policies will lose (assuming that the financial budget stays the same).
Meaning that for simple changes that have no interactions with other departments, a politician or median Joe, is basically taking decisions where he changes priorities between existing and desired policies.
Do-able, but exhausting, and very difficult for a department staff manager, because at the start of a new term he will have no clue about the full package of balances of his politician or Joe. Especially in the case of a Joe.
With a politician, that department manager will at least have some clues from a party program, or a political track record, that enables proposals in the right ballpark.
When there is an interaction with other departments, financial budget shifts between departments already difficult, but when it is about content overlapping or cross department effects, the complexity explodes.

Fine at small scale community level, but not imo at the responsibility level of a bigger country, or bigger policies.
Big Corporate, your own departments, foreign enemies, splinter groups wanting a strongman, etc..... will eat you up alive.

I'm thinking that not mentioning the specialists doesn't really mean that there are none, and certainly doesn't mean that there can't be any. If you replace the elected legislature with a drawn by lot legislature than you definitely need them. And you definitely need that city (or state, or country) manager who is the one point of contact that all the legislature's directions run through. You can't have all the departments just winging their priorities at the council of Joes. The single point of contact manager can present "This is what you said you wanted to do about health care. This is what the human services department says it will cost if we implement this, which has everything that you want. This is what they say it will cost to implement that, which does most of the stuff you want (list provided). This is what they say it will cost to do this this and this, which seemed like the most important parts of what you want. Here's a handful of different funding plans for each option to give you an idea of how hard the cuts have to be to provide the different levels of funding." Then the legislature hashes it out and decides what they want done, in a public hearing where people can call them stupid if they try to be stupid.

Again, the big problem, at any level, is if the process of getting on that legislature is as simple as having your name come up in a lottery you might not want to deal with it all. Especially when the public hearing is full of people calling you stupid. Plus the bigger everything gets the more the legislature is at the mercy of the staff. The most important decision they ever make will always be about the contract of the city manager. Who to hire, and when to fire them.
 
The guardianista and similar cliches have two problems:

People don't vote the way they are told to e.g. they voted to Leave the EU, and
political leaders such as Donald Trump want to do things they don't like.

Sortition is seen as a solution to both problems.

It preempts democratic referendums and enables the establishment to put
naive people in office, where the establishment can run rings around them.

Unqualified sortition runs the risk of totally unsuitable prople being chosen by lottery
while qualified sortition means the establishment can exclude those it does not like.

The only area in which sortition has demonstrated sucess in is in the citizen jury where
jury members are secluded from distractions to concentrate on one question at a time.
 
I'm thinking that not mentioning the specialists doesn't really mean that there are none, and certainly doesn't mean that there can't be any. If you replace the elected legislature with a drawn by lot legislature than you definitely need them. And you definitely need that city (or state, or country) manager who is the one point of contact that all the legislature's directions run through. You can't have all the departments just winging their priorities at the council of Joes. The single point of contact manager can present "This is what you said you wanted to do about health care. This is what the human services department says it will cost if we implement this, which has everything that you want. This is what they say it will cost to implement that, which does most of the stuff you want (list provided). This is what they say it will cost to do this this and this, which seemed like the most important parts of what you want. Here's a handful of different funding plans for each option to give you an idea of how hard the cuts have to be to provide the different levels of funding." Then the legislature hashes it out and decides what they want done, in a public hearing where people can call them stupid if they try to be stupid.

Again, the big problem, at any level, is if the process of getting on that legislature is as simple as having your name come up in a lottery you might not want to deal with it all. Especially when the public hearing is full of people calling you stupid. Plus the bigger everything gets the more the legislature is at the mercy of the staff. The most important decision they ever make will always be about the contract of the city manager. Who to hire, and when to fire them.

The point I tried to make was that in our highly complex societes, we need specialists, cannot do without them.
I think that goes so far that if you tweak or design a political system, your key objectives (and choices) are:
* how to get a sustainable trust from your people with happiness as subordinate to trust, but immediately following.
* how to manage your specialists
* how to protect these two objectives from disruptive influences

That article does not mention specialists as an essential element in the total equation.

To that hire & fire of the city manager, as likely most important decision. That's probably the way it will go in the US and rock bottom also in other countries with a much stronger magistrate continuity culture.
And what you say on: "who wants to be that median Joe ?", I agree. It sounds like a 4 year rollercoaster trauma for most regular people, especially when sorted by median convictions and stable character profile, disrupting their life.
 
The only area in which sortition has demonstrated sucess in is in the citizen jury where
jury members are secluded from distractions to concentrate on one question at a time.

yes
but even there, if you compare trust in the judicial system regarding court verdicts, there is from benchmarking countries no evidence that citizen juries are of better quality or have more trust, than full magistrate court systems.
 
That John Dryzek article is pretty bad btw. Group Voting Tickets were indefensible.
 
For those with multi-chamber legislatures sortition might be a good way of populating all or part of a revising/reviewing chamber than one that drafts legislation. For a concrete example maybe the UK House of Lords would benefit from being 1/3rd sortition-ed instead of stuffed with cronies and hasbeens.
 
How bout a large and representing sample is used to vote each issue.

Sounds like an awful system but for the quality of the counterpropositions.
 
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