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Vox Populi Diplomacy Feedback

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by HeathcliffWarriors, Nov 25, 2019.

  1. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    They're in base VP, no additional mods are needed.

    Not to my knowledge.
     
  2. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond Prince

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    Not really related to the recent diplomacy overhaul but I think the warmonger penalty for capturing cities is too high. Once I start capturing 1-2 cities (not the capital), even if I am not the one who declared war I become the n°1 target in the world till the end of the game. So when I am being attacked I have to refrain capturing cities of the attacker and just kill his units if I don't want to become the worst tyrant in the world, which is a bit unrealistic to me as I am the defender.

    I think the warmonger penalty should be reduced when capturing cities and you were the not the one who started the war. Or maybe just for the first city you capture then normal penalties apply.
     
    lunker and vyyt like this.
  3. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    I disagree; in my current game I captured 3 Cities from Rome, including their capital, and liberated one smaller City, in mid Classical to early Medieval, which was enough to vassalize them. This has set me up for winning already, as vassalizing your closest neighbor is very valuable; still, remaining peaceful afterwards until Renaissance allowed me to maintain several DoFs and thus develop nicely until I was ready for the next great plunge, where I conquered 5 more Cities and vassalized two more Civs; at this point my warmonger score was very high with most civs and maintaining friendships now was only possible with my vassals.

    This is the way it's supposed to work, IMO. In your case you probably have other factors going on that cause you to be the target of the world's dismay. Furthermore, playing defensively means not conquering other people's Cities, even if they declare on you (except maybe an early game forward settled one; but you're also supposed to prevent that by expanding quickly enough yourself); I understand the urge to go on the counteroffensive for some revenge, but that is definitely aggression on your part.

    If anything, the sensitivity of the anti-warmonger bonus could be reduced a bit so it rises a bit more slowly, as was pointed out in another thread, but I'm not sure if even that is necessary.
     
    Omen of Peace likes this.
  4. usadefcon1

    usadefcon1 Warlord

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    When a master civ declares war, the vassal should have a choice to either join the war with the master or to claim independence.... It would make vassalage much more precarious.
     
  5. SpankmyMetroid

    SpankmyMetroid Warlord

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    That would just be an incredible liability for the master. If I logically don’t have any troops between me and my vassal’s cities since they’re literally incapable of warring with me then why would I want to potentially open up a giant hole in my backline by declaring on someone else? And if they can just potentially be a threat like that anyway then there’s little reason to vassalize them in the first place as opposed to crippling or completely eliminating them.
     
  6. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Beiing the defender, conquering the first city of the attacker didn't create as much warmonger penalty as if you were the attacker. Any city behind the first gives normal warmonger penalty. If I remember correctly.
     
  7. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond Prince

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    I asked HeathcliffWarriors about that and to his knowledge it is not the case (his answer is 5 posts before yours). But he may be wrong :)
     
  8. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    The diplomacy AI doesn't store which player declared war in memory, so I think my guess is pretty good. :)
     
  9. psparky

    psparky Prince

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    In the very old version I still mostly play with, there is a function isAggressor that I believe stores this information - it's a 'team' function rather than a 'player' function. Of course, it's possible it got removed in the meantime.

    Again, looking at my old version there is a conflict between the code, comments and variable names, but it used to give a x1.9 multiplier to the aggressor. I tweaked my version so that it was x1 for the aggressor and x0.9 for a non-aggressor, which was my best guess of the intention. Again this is all very old, but maybe the info is still useful.
     
  10. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    Could be! I'll check later.
     
  11. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    Ah, it turns out I am indeed wrong.

    There's a 10% reduction to the warmonger penalty for capturing a city from someone who declared war on you. Not very significant, to be fair.
     
    vyyt and civplayer33 like this.
  12. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    I'd vote for a bump to 25% reduction, though honestly it's probably a slight buff for the human, mostly, as he will be most able to intelligently goad his opponents into declaring on him at the right time...might not be all that significant, though.

    I like the idea of getting away with a little "revenge conquest" more than starting the aggression from the outset.
     
    vyyt, usadefcon1 and Heinz_Guderian like this.
  13. usadefcon1

    usadefcon1 Warlord

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    Definitely could use a bump, 25% might be too much... maybe somewhere in the middle? (15-20%)
     
  14. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    Gazebo is modifying the warmonger penalty system at the moment, there should be changes in the next version.
     
  15. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    Also added two more changes which should help with diplomacy:
    Code:
    More nuanced AI definition of "easy targets", and lowered excessive AI weight towards attacking "weak" players
    
    More nuanced check for AI dogpiling on one target
    
    Together these adjustments should reduce excessive war declarations, especially against one target.
     
  16. azum4roll

    azum4roll Prince

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    I almost never declare war myself. If I'm playing peacefully I'd only have to vassalize my hostile neighbour(s), and hostile neighbours always declare on you anyway. If I'm warmongering I'm taking most of my neighbours' cities so the world hates me and will declare war on me.

    The only times I'd declare war is when I'm with peaceful neighbours while playing as a warmonger.
     
  17. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    A few last adjustments for the next version:
    Code:
    AIs who have been resurrected (or have resurrected a player) are
    now less likely to adopt any approach other than FRIENDLY (+1x FRIENDLY bias, -1x bias to all other approaches)
    - This bonus is also applied to players who have liberated the AI's original capital
    
    Slightly adjusted AI aggression and bloc building
    (should be in a good place overall for upcoming version)
    
    AIs that are nearly defeated in a war against another civilization (or guaranteed to lose)
    will now always use nukes if they have them, ignoring the random roll
    
     
  18. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    Could this receive a bit more nuance with respect to the AI's opponent's nuclear arsenal? I think they should probably be careful when their enemy has e.g. 3 times the amount of nukes that they do...so maybe only use nukes against such an enemy if the absolute worst war projection is true, while being more "liberal" with their use if the enemy has less or the same amount. Though this may get complicated with respect to how the AI determines the size of their opponent's nuclear arsenal...as a human there are ways to arrive at a pretty good estimate but I'm guessing there's no logic currently in the code to do this for the AI...I suppose the AI could simply "cheat" and get the numbers directly for this purpose or they could look at the amount of Uranium tiles the other player has inside his territory and just assume that some of it is used for nukes (maybe 50%?).
     
  19. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    The diplo AI already counts the number of nukes each player has, although this isn't used in the calculation to decide whether to launch one.

    But anyway, my change was only if War Projection = DESTRUCTION or War State = NEARLY DEFEATED. Otherwise, it has to pass two random rolls, which are rolled under certain circumstances - that's a Firaxis decision, by the way.

    I could adjust the logic in the next patch to do something like that, though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  20. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    For personal reasons, I'm gonna have to take a break from modding for a while. I hope the diplo AI is in a good state overall now. I'll be back when I can (not sure how long that will be). Have fun everyone!
     
    burleigh, vyyt, JNZS13 and 7 others like this.

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