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Vox Populi Diplomacy Feedback

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by HeathcliffWarriors, Nov 25, 2019.

  1. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    Sad! :D
    But seriously, you've made some great contributions! I hope you resolve the issue and come back soon!
     
  2. Heinz_Guderian

    Heinz_Guderian Chieftain

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    You will be missed bro, hope whatever is up sorts itself out :)
     
  3. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    Thank you for your patience and support, everyone. I should be back sometime around the start of February.

    You can still post feedback on the diplomacy AI here if you'd like. I'll look at it when I'm back.
     
  4. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    How has diplomacy been in the 2-9 beta? Were the hive mind and endless war problems fixed? More opportunities for friendship?
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  5. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Warlord

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    I can feel the difference in my Immortal warmonger games and i actually like it to a large extent but maybe it went too far with being peaceful or ignoring a winning player, I know the current fix is temporary but a middle ground between ELIMINATE_HUMANS.EXE and the current implementation to be slightly more aggressive as a player gets closer to winning not the old ELIMINATE_HUMANS.EXE 7 VS 1 in late medieval/ early renaissance would be nice..... tho i would not mind the current behavior staying as is.
     
  6. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    Thanks for the feedback. The adjustment is indeed temporary. Anyone else? :)
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  7. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    This won't be an extensively detailed report (which I posted in the 2/9 thread), but below is the diplo regarding my vassals and opponents near the conclusion of my Japan game. Some quick things to note: I did not have transparent diplo on, and I treated all vassals very well. I raised their taxes once after they all denied a demand to vote for one of my early chosen proposals, surprising considering my strength. I know there's many factors at play varying between each game, but overall I'd say the diplo felt good (though it's harder to gauge everything in a domination game). I'll have a better idea after playing a couple peaceful games.
    • China
      Spoiler :
      Screenshot (112).png
      - Wu was my oldest vassal and was not initially fond of me after leaving her on the brink of death. She had to stay afloat quickly as I moved through adjacent Inca and American territory, and I rewarded her by liberating Nanjing which was held by America from the first war. She sat on her 2 cities and was on friendly terms with me throughout the game, though Babylon did inform me near the end that she'd been plotting against me.
      Spoiler :
      Screenshot (118).png
    • Inca
      Spoiler :
      Screenshot (113).png
      - Pacha was no real issue to me aside from having to rid his religion after capitulating, as he mainly swayed between afraid/guarded/friendly throughout his time under my rule. He stole a neighboring city-state or two from me, which I promptly had to deal with, and at one point ended up walking away with my entire reserve worth 17k due to a bug, but other than that there's nothing he could've really done; teaming up with Wu on my southern border would've probably just brought them a quick death with maybe a 5% chance at successfully gaining back some of their land.
    • Babylon
      Spoiler :
      Screenshot (114).png
      - Neb was a former ally and friend who catered to me during early game while being afraid most of the time. I had to unfortunately add him to my list of casualties (left him on 1 city), after which he basically remained afraid/guarded.
    • Celts
      Spoiler :
      Screenshot (115).png
      - Boudica was only under my control for a brief time while I fought against Rome. Because I revived her, I received the bonuses of vassalization / friendship, but she surprisingly ended up nulling the DoF after a bit.
    • Portugal
      Spoiler :
      Screenshot (117).png
      - Not much to break down here; I approached her with gifts when we first met, but she was quick to realize the threat of my true intentions - she denounced me shortly after we met. La Venta gave me a DoW quest for Maria, so I positioned my army and took her out with ease (I gave her the chance to capitulate, but she instead chose her demise).
    • Rome
      Spoiler :
      Screenshot (116).png
      Spoiler :
      Screenshot (120).png
      Spoiler :
      Screenshot (121).png
      - Just as with Maria, I approached him with gifts and he soon offered a DoF and DP once Portugal decided to denounce me; we shared policies and they had been warring on hostile terms. As I was establishing foothold through Portuguese lands, He was clearing through Celtic territory and gaining land. There was a brief period of about 25 turns where I regrouped and prepared my forces for final attack (coinciding with Inca taking all my gold so I had to wait to upgrade...), but the AI was just not equipped to realize that it had a small window to go into desperation mode and save the game. I had great diplo with Rome while also being in a DoF and DP, but when I'm sitting on top of him with 6 other capitals and only his lands remaining, he should throw all that out the window and adjust to act accordingly asap. On turn 268 he is actually briefly neutral, but then is back to showing friendly 3 turns later after I renewed a trade deal. I had my units sitting there for 20+ turns, which is the small window I was referring to where he was on equal footing unit wise with fusiliers, and even after upgrading my army he didn't ask me to move my troops (I know we had open borders, but still, I was obviously preparing to invade). I was actually pleased to see a partnership available between two big boys on the the field, but ultimately the AI needs to be able to anticipate a backstab in this situation where their "friend" is on the brink of a dom win. I know approach and opinion changes gradually, but again, in this case it needs to happen rapidly and jump on what ever opportunity they can (with desperation level increasing based on how far apart the two remaining sides are in terms of overall power/strength).
     
    HeathcliffWarriors likes this.
  8. Acaerus

    Acaerus Chieftain

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    I think you need to limit winning aggression only to second and maybe third player in score list, so weak AI`s will stop suicidal wars against winning players. At early stages of my games now everything feels just fine, some enemies that are close to me, some neutrals and friend. Everything looks balanced and "lifelike". In all my 4 games i started on prince and king there is like a killswitch, somewhere when cruisers and ironclads appear AI just denounce me one after another and even closest AI friend treats me like i`m some king of hitler or something. Yes i was leading in all those games, but still i don`t think that how it should work, it`s really just feel very artificial. I`m going to try a game with winning agression turned of if i figured out properly how to do it and see if it is a problem for me.
     
    jdevo likes this.
  9. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    Looking into this for the future. Keep in mind, though, that this is a game and the AI plays to win. You can disable this by turning off victory competition if you don't like it.
     
  10. Acaerus

    Acaerus Chieftain

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    Please, check this out. That`s my latest game. I see how Darius may have legitimate fears about mem even considering that our closest cities 9 tiles apart and there is 2 tiles between out borders. But what the hell is wrong with Netherlands and Siam? Territorial disputes stain you relations? What disputes i`m 15+ tiles away from any of their cities, divided by another nation. I don`t know about expansion modifier it`s strange for me at best, never build cities even remotely close to them, why they should even take this into consideration is beyond me. So as i see it, they both hate persians, and if not those two modifiers we would be 3 best friends ******* up 1 guy they don`t like.

    P.S. All that is written by me is IMHO and i don`t tell anyone that something should be done differently, i just express my experience and something i personally don`t like about this mod.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
  11. azum4roll

    azum4roll Prince

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    Score doesn't reflect whether a civ is close to victory; it favours wide diplomatic civs.
     
  12. PapaRockett

    PapaRockett Prince

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    Hey Heathcliff

    This has probably been mentioned already, but it's a really obvious issue that's always happening in recent games. I don't think the AI is calculating the player's military strength correctly. I could be the only civ who has Fusiliers/Ironclads, yet every hostile AI moans about my military being weak.

    I'm guessing this is what's causing AI to recklessly declare war on the player all the time. Meanwhile, there are other AI civs who are snowballing towards world congress domination (looking at you, Siam and Austria) but the hostile AI leaves them alone! I'm doing nothing to anger these AI. I'm not competing for city states, I'm not spying on them, yet it's always me they are declaring on.

    It's getting annoying when I just want a peaceful game and the AI is hellbent on fighting me, despite me doing nothing to anger them, and the fact that there are other nearby civs who are posing more of a threat towards victory. I would love if this bias against the human player was removed, or at least recalculated to properly take REAL military strength in consideration.
     
    jdevo likes this.
  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    A new method for learning how skilled the player really is is on the way.
    Maybe it will be ready for next release, if we let him work. :thumbsup:
     
    jdevo and Heinz_Guderian like this.
  14. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    AI military strength estimations have been adjusted in the latest beta (2-18).

    Actually, please do tell me any feedback you have. Only with feedback on how it's behaving can I improve it. :)
     
    tu_79 likes this.
  15. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Warlord

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    I'm playing with transparent diplomacy, the only negative modifier before i had i got 3 DOWs was "expanding too aggressively" with no border disputes with either India or Arabia ...... i had 5 cities, Both Arabia and Assyria had 4 while India had 3.
    I was trade partner with both Arabia and India .... India had the "desires friendly relationship with out empire".
    May i ask how much "weight" does a DOW from civ X on civ Y add to the aggressive approach to other AIs towards civ Y ?
    Could the "Expanding too aggressively" be tweaked to be the number in comparison to the Civ number of owned cities and scales based on the difference, not just be an all-or-non modifier that always weighs -40 ?
    Spoiler :
    Sid Meier's Civilization V (DX11) 2_19_2020 17_03_04.jpg
     
  16. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    That's odd; maybe Venice is dragging down the average. Could you post a savegame (with a list of any mods you're using) on Github? I want to make sure that modifier is behaving correctly.

    Actually, that's not a bad idea. I could add scaling based on number of cities.
     
    Omen of Peace likes this.
  17. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Warlord

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    I could not find the save game for the issue above as i abandoned and started a new game.
    Another point i would like to bring to your attention is the AI suicidal behavior like this.
    Spoiler :
    Sid Meier's Civilization V (DX11) 2_21_2020 15_43_45.jpg

    Although i have twice the military strength of the runner up i got a DOW from both America and Persia without any sort of military power to back it up.
    Don't get me wrong, i like competition modifier for the AI Minus the dogpiling hive mind thing ofc. but if the behavior could be modified to take military power into accont it would be much better.
     
  18. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    That you occasionally get DoW'ed even with lower military is not necessarily a bug. The AI does take military power into account, but it's not the only factor.

    Thanks for the feedback, though. Was it a coop war or did they declare individually?
     
    Kim Dong Un likes this.
  19. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    So this patch I've been experiencing a weirdness with regard to World Congress Proposals and trading them.

    First off, in previous patches, I don't think I ever found a deal other than "Impossible!" for WC trading and was never able to do one.

    This patch, Maria has been asking me to vote for rather strange things; however, I've always taken her proposal and swapped it, promising that I will vote for my own resolution, and she pays me to do it. Great way to make money.

    I think a simple fix for this is that any player can request another to vote for something, but our can never intentionally put your own votes on the table, and you CERTAINLY can't make others pay you to vote for your own resolutions.
     
    mohard likes this.
  20. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

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    That's odd. I've traded for votes and traded my votes on various occasions in previous patches.
    Why? I don't think that would be an improvement.
     

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