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Vox Populi Diplomacy Feedback

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by HeathcliffWarriors, Nov 25, 2019.

  1. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    They also won't take your Open Borders if their approach towards you is negative (WAR/HOSTILE/DECEPTIVE/GUARDED), or they think you're setting a trap for them.

    This happens because "Demand" is still using the same trade window as "Trade". I'm hoping this can be fixed one day, but as I understand it it'd require some complicated and difficult UI work.

    In the meantime, I removed the mechanic where a failed demand activates the cooldown timer where you can't ask again for X turns.

    The AI might agree to give items that you demand for if the deal value is IMPOSSIBLE, including World Congress votes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
  2. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    How does this work with friends (DoF), btw? Is the evaluation more lenient? Do I get a diplomatic malus if he refuses when I "Request Help"? Is there a hard check against having offered me a free gift in the last x turns, which means he'll turn down all further requests?
     
  3. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    Yes, the evaluation is more lenient, except if DECEPTIVE (in which case they'll never accept a request), but they'll only help you out if they think you actually need it.

    No, only AIs apply a diplo malus for refusing requests (it's a penalty to recent assistance). Humans can handle their own diplomacy - that goes for all other diplo modifiers too. :)

    (Technically speaking, there is a shadow AI behind the human player and it might apply certain modifiers, but that shadow AI isn't consulted when engaging in diplomacy with other AIs.)

    Not certain about the exact turn limits/mechanics for demands, I'll take a look at that when I work on getting an understanding of the deal AI later.
     
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  4. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    I phrased it poorly; what I meant was: does the AI apply a malus in their opinion toward me if I use the "Request Help" mechanism with them (when having a DoF with them) if they refuse to give help? I am under the impression that it will do so if we are not friends (meaning if I make a Demand), but maybe that impression is wrong, too?
     
  5. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    There is no diplo malus for requesting help; there is for making a demand.
     
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  6. Coffee Monopoly

    Coffee Monopoly Warlord

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    As a fully conscious human person, I sadly can NOT confirm this.
     
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  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I'm not sure that befriending civs that are further away is the right call.

    Just find which is your worse foe and try to make friends with the people they fear or hate.
     
  8. CyberPhy

    CyberPhy Chieftain

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    one of the problem with the diplomacy I have is that when I play Hotseat with my friends, we all play on the same team, when at war the AI almost always tries to make peace with my Team mates, so it makes it really easy to make peace when the AI declares war against us
     
  9. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    The weight is only applied in the Ancient and Classical Eras, during which, for both AI and humans, most disputes are territorial. It's also not the be-all and end-all of approaches, just one factor of many.

    The Medieval Era is a transition period (except for conquerors, who need to start early if they want to win) and starting in the Renaissance all AIs gain strategic weight based on their traits and the victory condition they're aiming for, which does indeed try to focus on the biggest foes. The Renaissance is a good time for this weight to be applied because that's when they can start crossing ocean tiles, allowing for more flexibility in transporting units over larger distances.

    I'll set it so AI teammates of humans can't make peace on their own, if that isn't already the case.

    However, they can't really differentiate between human teammates - making peace is something your real friends need to decide on. :)
     
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  10. intelli

    intelli Warlord

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    I always though it was odd that a sanctioned player can't trade with it's own vassals; in the real world the opposite would be the case surely? e.g. if Hitler annexes a bunch of Europe and was sanctioned, the world wouldn't be able to trade with Vichy France anymore but Hitler would. Ingame, unless this has been changed in a beta, the trade logic for vassals and sanctioning makes no sense.
     
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  11. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    I thought that was odd as well, which is why I brought it up last year, and the community agreed in a poll, so sanctioned masters can trade with their vassals now, and vice versa. :)
     
  12. Milae

    Milae Chieftain

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    Maybe I have missed something but it feels almost impossible to actually be friendly to someone who is your neighbour even if you tried your best to be friends with them in every possible way eventually the relationship will break down when you do something unavoidable to annoy them (like accidentally steal a city state ally, build a wonder or get close to victory). Could be good to have more possible options of ways to cooperate so that there is some way of keeping people friendly if you are willing to inconvenience yourself to do so.
     
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  13. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    Currently, proximity does matter quite a bit, especially in the early game. Even if you have no land disputes, it will multiply WAR/HOSTILE likelihood by 2-2.5x.

    This has been the case since vanilla Civ, most likely because the AI will have a much easier time conquering its neighbors in a dispute than someone across the continent/sea.

    Do you have any suggestions for improvement?
     
  14. usadefcon1

    usadefcon1 Warlord

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    I'm not sure exactly how much weight religion has in the early game, but following the same religion should probably mitigate most proximity conflicts.
     
  15. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    Religion's diplomatic weight is currently controlled by the DiploEmphasisReligion variable (a multiplier on Opinion modifiers relating to religion).

    It depends on the game (not player!) era:
    1 in the Ancient Era
    3 in the Classical Era
    5 (peak) in the Medieval Era
    4 in the Renaissance Era
    3 in the Industrial Era
    3 in the Modern Era
    2 in the Atomic Era
    1 in the Information Era

    Re: following the same religion mitigating most conflicts, I think there's a belief that actually encourages wars against players following the same religion

    That said, you get +1x FRIENDLY bias for following the same religion, and an additional +1x if it's their religion and the World Religion.
     
  16. usadefcon1

    usadefcon1 Warlord

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    Maybe a bump to this as long as the AI doesn't have its own Holy City? Makes sense historically, gives the player a way to actively control who they want to be friendly with, and requires an investment.
     
  17. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    If you're converting the AI's cities, you don't get this bonus, you instead get a bump to WAR and HOSTILE approaches, so the existing bonus is already applied under this condition (well, unless you conquer their Holy City and use an Inquisitor on it).

    In general, the AI is programmed to make decisions that are in its own strategic interests. Does it necessarily benefit from being more friendly to the founder/Holy City controller of their majority religion, or would it actually pose a disadvantage by making things too easy?
     
  18. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    I do see your point re: the diplomatic importance of religion in the early to mid game, and I've thought of a solution that should address both this and part of the concern raised in another thread about religious domination being too easy.

    Code:
    Diplomatic importance of same/opposing religions now more important, especially in the Medieval and Renaissance Eras, and especially if you've converted their cities
    
    Diplomatic importance of same/opposing ideologies now more important
    
    Bonuses for same religion/ideology do not apply to players the AI considers untrustworthy (but at least you won't get a penalty)
    
    This should make religious domination more difficult, but more rewarding.

    With this change, emphasized diplomatic sources of tension by era would be roughly as follows:

    Ancient: Border disputes (larger emphasis)
    Classical: Border disputes, religion (smaller emphasis)
    Medieval: Border disputes (smaller emphasis), religion (larger emphasis), strategic victory weight for conquerors/warmongers
    Renaissance: Religion, strategic victory weight for all civs
    Industrial: Religion (smaller emphasis), strategic victory weight
    Modern: Ideology, strategic victory weight
    Atomic: Ideology (larger emphasis), strategic victory weight
    Information: Ideology (smaller emphasis), strategic victory weight, end of game victory competition

    All eras: Warmongering, backstabbing, military threat

    Territorial disputes will always play an important role, but this should help diversify things a little and make it both more interesting and strategic. And it's historically accurate. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
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  19. Milae

    Milae Chieftain

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    What if being close just makes their stance more extreme in general? Like either you can be really good friends because you are close and cooperate, or big enemies if you are close and annoy one another.
    Maybe make friends more likely to ask for assistance and give a bigger long term diplo bonus with them if you comply. Vice versa bigger long term penalty for stealing a worker and stuff like that.
     
  20. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    An interesting idea, actually. I've made a lot of diplo changes already, so I'd like to wait for next version and player feedback, but this is worth keeping in mind.
     
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