W W II- Things my old teacher told me..

mrog

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Hello All,

As the second world war seems to be a source of great interest around here, I thought I might pass on some things told to me by an old geography teacher of mine who served in the waffen ss.

I'm not sure how interesting this is for you all, also, I have no way of verifying what he said- but anyway here goes. His name was Kurt.

. As a child Kurt remembered men comming to his house and taking away books- his father was given a stern warning.

. He remembered his father talking about the election that saw the Nazis come to power- the voting slips were very thin and the pencils were very hard, consequently it was often not possible to hide how one had voted. The Nazis had thugs at each polling booth to encourage people to think carefully about who they voted for.

. His parents were not keen on the Nazis but Kurt did not understand why. Kurt was in the Hitler youth- he said that virtually every youngster was- and it was great fun. He once saw Hitler close up during an inspection of the Hitler youth. He had been very excited by the prospect, but was disapointed by the reality of a small very ordinary looking man.

. Kurt's dream was to be a teacher and he wanted to attend the best school he could. The government ran a competion in which students resaerched their family tree, the prize being a scholarship to a good school for the student in each district who went back the furthest. Kurt's parents forbid him to take part but, without thier knowledge, he did the research and sent the info to the government. In this way the government learned that Kurt had some jewish ancestory (a great great grandmother I think). Because of this, when Kurt was old enough to enlist, he had to join the Waffen ss- I allways found this strange- but he said it was required to prove his loyalty and also, he thought, so they could keep an eye on him.

. He ended up driving A Panther on the western front- he was very grateful he never had to go east he assured us that if he had he wouldn't have survived.

. He said that, in retrospect, he was glad that Germany lost the war, but at the time he and his comrades wanted to win. This was partly becasue that would increase their chances of survival, but it also had to do with personal pride.

. He had little respect for the fighting ability of the allies (the americans in his case). At the time he and his fellows were frustrated by the fact that they rarely encountered the enemy on the ground due to allied air superioity. He said that when they did engage allied ground forces without air support, they buckled quite easily. On two occaisons his tank was destroyed by fighter bombers.

. In the closing stages on the war his 65 yo father was sent east (not far east by that time) to fight the Soviets and was never seen again.

. His main point in telling us all that was to show that you never know what will happen in life. He lived though the war and achived his dream- being a teacher and living by the sea.
 
I always like to hear these kind of perspectives. Also, you seriously lucked out for a history teacher... the Waffen-SS were great soldiers and, their legacy aside, I imagine he could make studying that war absolutely fascinating (not that it isn't anyway).
 
A couple of interesting points not often discussed:

1) Many Heer officers and men were "drafted" into the SS. Of course, many volunteered but there also many who simply woke up one day and found themselves in the SS.

2) The Germans had interesting, and different, attitudes towards each of the Allies. Strangely, the germans preferred to fight the British with whom they felt a strange sort of fraternity. We all know the situation on the eastern front.

I've heard and read the general german attitude towards the americans in several places. It's usually characterized by a poor opinion of the quality of the average soldier.

In some part, I think this attitude can be explained by frustration at not being able to really fight the americans toe to toe due to air supremacy, frustration at the resources available to the americans, and a feeling that the americans were "intruders" in a european war.

Interesting, anyway.
/bruce
 
Thanks for the post. It's good to see those kind of insights.

and a feeling that the americans were "intruders" in a european war.

I've never really picked this up in my readings. I wonder if the average German remembered that Hitler declared war on the US, or if they put it in the perspective that the US was already helping Britain?
 
Originally posted by DingBat
Strangely, the germans preferred to fight the British with whom they felt a strange sort of fraternity.
That's not that strange if you think about the Nazi's racist beliefs. They believed in the superiority of the germanic (aryan) people(s) which includes the anglesaxons. They (in particular Hitler) saw the English as kind of a "brother people". After all the English (and also the other British) speak a germanic language and their culture isn't that different to the German one.
 
Well that is new!!
In India, atleast during the early parts of the WAR, people wanted Hitler to win in the faint hope that the British Empire would collapse after that. However, many Indians thought that Hitler wanted to see them free because they were also Aryans. I am not so sure if the Germans reciprocated that.

I think the Germans despised the Americans because Hitler had branded them a nation of "Gangster and Crooks" whereas he at one point said he pitied the English for having been forced into this war. I think this may have been a reason for this bias.
 
Great story; I had a similar situation in a mil history class in university. I grew up on Canada's west coast in Victoria, which is a retirement haven, so we were blessed with a multinational pool of retired folks to bring in as guest speakers. A middle-cold war-era Canadian Admiral, a Canadian platoon commander during the liberation of Holland and a Brit who had been (at 27) responsible for the logistics for one of the British armies on the Western Front were highlights, the real revelations came from a Captain who had been a staff officer for Rommel until he was captured in Tunisia. We had 3 hour classes. This one was worth it:

Amusingly, he similar insights to those you mention:

* Respected the British and Australian soldier, but had little time for the more sedate British generals - said aggressive tactics by Brits in the desert - even with heavy initial casualties - often put the Afrika Corps in greater danger than Monty's more attritive approach.

* Mocked the Americans as "cowboys" in combat, "charging forward with their pistols going "bang, bang," as though war was a western movie." Granted, he had only seen them at Kasserine and elsewhere in Tunisia, so his perspective was limited. Generally he used the typical German tone to suggest that they were all juvenile gangsters or dilinquents or something

* Said the Italians he fought with were brave, but he felt sorry for them because they got the butt end of both the jokes and the Allied attacks. Said the big problem the Italians had was poor training, support and equipment; thought that some of them would have been pros if only these issues could be remedied.

* Said the main French error in '40 tactically was their predictability.

* As a professional German soldier, he (unsurprisingly) made a point of stressing the military's contempt for the Nazis. While he fairly said that everyone he was with wanted to win the war, and felt that revenge against France and a war against Bolshevism were worthwhile causes, he said that he and many other staff officers talked openly dicuring the Alamein campaign about how, "when we've won the war," they would have to boot the larger part of the nazi regime out if postwar life was to be at all tolerable.


As for the SS, I have at least one friend - a Slovene - who had a relative conscripted into it, although the process was more like an 1810 Royal Navy impressment than conscription as we know it today. Happily, the guy deserted and worked with SOE.
 
It's always interseting to hear the thoughts of the people who were there at historical events, and i can add a few to this topic.

A few years back I met a man who owned a resturant here in NY who was a U-boat crewmemeber, a cook in fact (not all vets are glamouros!), who had some interesting things to say about the Atlantic war, and how the crews viewed it.
From what he said, most of them felt like dead men walking after 43, and felt betrayed by Hitler, because they were sent into battle with inferior materials at this point.

Another interesting person i knew growing up was a woman from Bavaria (and she was the nicest person I ever met, to this day) who said that Hitler was good until the war started!
I still have the 1938 copy of "Mein Kampf" she willed me (she passed on in 1978, at 77 years of age).
I still remember her stories of pre-war germany, like many average German women, she seemed to know little of the darker aspects of the Nazis, and believed most of that wasn't true anyway.

I remember another fellow I used to see at the American Legion, a veteran of the Murmansk convoys, a merchant seamen.
He once told me how his ship was hit with an aerial torpedo near Murmansk, and that he was in the water for only 10 minutes but nearly died from exposure.

I could go on, but that's enough for now, I think. ;)
 
As concerning about WW2, I have a grand Uncle who fought the Japs at Burma with the British. My history teacher told us that her uncle was one of the POWs the Japanese caught in Singapore. Apart from that there was not too much action here, save for the Japs in the East, but the Anti British sentiment here made it all the more tough for the British to get recruits form here especially due to the "Quit India " movement going on at that time.

P.S.The famous cigars of Winston Churchill were made by a firm in Madras or Chennai as it is known:goodjob:
 
Originally posted by allhailIndia
As concerning about WW2, I have a grand Uncle who fought the Japs at Burma with the British.

He was in the Forgotten Army? Did he fight at Imphal and Kohima? I'd be interested in any stories.

/bruce
 
I'll try to find out, he is pretty old and might not remember too much, but I shall give it a shot.
 
Originally posted by allhailIndia
As concerning about WW2, I have a grand Uncle who fought the Japs at Burma with the British. My history teacher told us that her uncle was one of the POWs the Japanese caught in Singapore. Apart from that there was not too much action here, save for the Japs in the East, but the Anti British sentiment here made it all the more tough for the British to get recruits form here especially due to the "Quit India " movement going on at that time.

I don't blame India for the anti-british sentiment; I had a step-great-grandfather at the Amritsar massacre (or, to put it another way, since he was an officer, he was commanding the Amritsar massacre) part of long familial imperialist tradition. You learn to blend historical pride with historical disgust very quickly in my circumstances.

But on a more dignified note, my grandfather was an RSM at Imphal-Kohima; in fact he was in Burma from 42 until the end of the war. What unit was your great uncle in?

PS Dingbat, re: stories:, my grandfather talks alot about Dunkirk, he was one of the last evacuees. But Burma is something he doesn't like to talk about much. He has three stories of that, and you have to drag it out of him.

The first is about how the field commanders were pissed that the tommies were not responding or adjusting to jungle conditions and Japanese fighting methods. So, after a fluke recapturing of a British hospital that had been taken by the Japanese, the division reorganized its front to allow for several units to be marched through the hospital and view first hand the bayoneted nurses, mangled corpses and all. Needless to say, the troops started to adapt quickly thereafter, and nobody bothered to wait to see if anyone would surrender anymore.

His second story is about liberating a string of POW camps in '45. He doesn't tell that one often.

His third story came out when several Canadian Legion branches, full of bigots, began denying access to Sikh veterans because they "wouldn't remove their (turban) headgear out of respect to the fallen." As my grandfather told it to many after hearing that, "funny, I don't remember asking the Sikh who took a Japanese bullet for me in our foxhole to take his turban off."

R.III
 
Hey my Great uncle was in Burma as an Army Doctor. I think R3's grandfather may know about him. Ask if he remembers a Capt.Thimmapiah. I don't exactly remember which regiment, but I shall try to find out.
 
Just to add to the war stories...

This is the strangest WWII story I have ever heard firsthand. It came from one of my German professors in college, a fellow named Eric Belz. I don't know if this is all true, partly true, or total BS, but as he told the story, he fought on both sides of WWII in Europe.

The story began when the Belz family moved from Germany to the state of Michigan just after the first World War. Eric's father wanted to make some money in a place with a stable government and economy, so America seemed like the best place to go. Eric was born in Ann Arbor, Michigan in 1922, and raised as a typical American child.

Then the Great Depression hit the United States. By the early 30's, Germany was actually looking better than the US for the Belz family -- the German economy was picking up, their relatives back home had good jobs, and this fellow Hitler seemed to be putting the country on the right foot. So they moved back to Germany. Eric spent his teenage years in German school, and joined the army in 1940.

Fast forward a few years to 1943. Eric was in Italy, and the Allies were invading. He'd seen enough to realize that the Nazi army was the wrong place to be, so he surrendered to the first American unit he found. Naturally, they were a bit skeptical that this fellow in full Wehrmacht uniform claimed to be from Michigan, but ultimately they checked out his background and confirmed everything.

So some bright American commanders got some ideas. They had a veteran soldier who had legitimate German credentials, spoke the language, knew the territory and even had relatives there. So they made him an offer he couldn't refuse. And he spent most of 1944 and '45 sneaking back and forth between the German and American lines, getting all kinds of information about German troop and supply locations and informing the Americans.

As I said, I really don't know how much of it is true, but it made a great story to tell over beers.
 
Let me share what I have heard of the war from those who fought in it, and what else I have gained from primary sources. They also tell why I think War to be the most repulsive thing I can imagine.
My grandfather was at the eastern front. He nowadays is an arch-conservative nationalist, but he condemns the nazis. I find this impressive.
He was in a tank at Stalingrad, and lost one of his legs. He was fortunate to leave the place. Fortunately for him, he is of strong character and strong will. He later became an archaeologist and had successful (and, at least in his circcles famous) diggings in India.
I grew up in many places -Dachau (!), Berlin, Karachi and London/Canada- and, I have rarely had any confrontions with Germany's dark past unvoluntarily. Yes, I was repeatedly called a nazi in Canada. But I didn't even know about Dachau until I was confronted with it by several children in my age teasing me about it. Today, of course, I wouldn't think much of it, but back then, I was about 12, that had a deep emotional impact (well, when I tell people I was born in Dachau, some ask me wether I want to pull their legs). We too have a copy of "Mein Kampf" at home. That is nothing criminal here. You may own it in Germany, you simply may not aquire it. An attempt of banning a book, which is difficult by german law. Germany is a perfect western democracy, IMHO. This is a special edition of the book, a 50th birthday edition from 1939. I tried to read it once.
AoA, I guarantee you the Bavarian lady has never read the book. No more than 0.02% of the Germans have read it. Here's why.
I once attended a reading of "Mein Kampf" by a Turkish actor (turkish actors are very popular here). He read only little passages of the book itself, and said a lot of interesting (and true) stuff around. It was also funny as hell. That is because he scoffed at the book. I would not say he made fun of it, because he didn't, IMHO. And he revealed the truths.
Hitler had no idea of how to write books. The language is semi-antiquated, and the grammar is horrible. Certain sentences are as long as an entire page! The book is a mess. It is unreadable.

Well, by educational plans, every school class has to visit a concentration camp. We visited Buchenwald. I barely stood through the entire thing. When walking through the crematorium (correct word?) I almost vomitted.

I find it uncomfortable, but important to discuss such topics.
 
Originally posted by allhailIndia
Hey my Great uncle was in Burma as an Army Doctor. I think R3's grandfather may know about him. Ask if he remembers a Capt.Thimmapiah. I don't exactly remember which regiment, but I shall try to find out.

I'm supposed to see him soon - not tomorrow or anything but shortly (he's in Victoria, I'm in Toronto, but I've got a wedding to go to).

I have to say I'm confused about my gf's service record myself, since he was (in the family tradition) with the Royal Horse Artillery Regt. during his BEF service in '39-'40, obviously a horse artillery unit nominally rather than actually by that point. I know he functioned practically as an infantryman in Burma/India, but I've never asked whether that was by accident or design.

I will ask.
 
Originally posted by Stefan Haertel
AoA, I guarantee you the Bavarian lady has never read the book. No more than 0.02% of the Germans have read it.
I agree completely, Stefan.
I tried several times to read an English translation, but it is so badly written as to be almost incomprehensible (not surprissing, considering who the author was, or the man who typed it, Hess).
 
Unfortunately, its unreadability meant that some of Hitler's most devious and bloodthirsty actions would go unnnoticed.

Also, did they really make you visit Buchenwald, when you were in school!!
I believe Preteens should not be exposed to such horrible things, at least not in real life:(
 
My Grandfather, a Polish-American, joined the US Army on September 1st 1939. I think we all know the significance of that date.

He spent a year training with his infantry unit Stateside, then a year pulling guard duty on Iceland.

When the US entered the war, he ended up a platoon sargeant of a heavy weapons section, in the 5th Infantry Division, which was part of Patton's 3rd Army.

He fought in North Africa, Scicily, France and Germany. Two purple hearts and a unit citation from the Ardennes counter-attack.

He also saw Buchenwald first hand.

In 1993, right before I ended up in Somolia, he passed away. I wished, and sometimes still wish, he was around for me to talk to about things. Veteran to veteran.

After the war, he made the best of things by being a good father and grandfather. He was quiet and softspoken, mild mannered and polite. Generous with his time, and kind to everyone. He tended roses in his garden here in Milwaukee, and grew fruit trees in his yard.

He didnt talk about the war much, but he told me a few things.

Most importantly that only rich and powerfull men benefit from war.
 
Originally posted by allhailIndia

Also, did they really make you visit Buchenwald, when you were in school!!
I believe Preteens should not be exposed to such horrible things, at least not in real life:(

I suppose the age could be argued, but it is important for the message to have a lasting impact. I went to Dachau at age 16, and it is something that I will always remember. I personally think that it is something that everyone should do if they get even half a chance.

I'm not an expert on child development, but I personally think 12 would be old enough.
 
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