Wainy's (Cultural!) Deity LP - Persia

[The Pilgrim]

you had too many landmarks and not enough population to afford working them all - and maintain pop growth and decent production - (early)Tradition is strong (mandatory) for a culture game IMO..

That was my though too. Maybe with only 2 cities, both with decent production output, early Landed Elite justifies tossing Opera Houses through Legalism gambit. They could have been built in under 10 turns, IIRC. But this seems rather unconventional and unpopular move.

 

[omgsrsly]

you had too many landmarks and not enough population to afford working them all - and maintain pop growth and decent production - (early)Tradition is strong (mandatory) for a culture game IMO..

yeah i thought this was an interesting attempt to formulate a different type of cultural victory but i think tradition ends up being a must for early growth and tile acquisition. one of the biggest problems seemed to be not having enough people to work all those landmarks + high yield tiles. also might have been worthwhile to try for early aqueducts but i don't know how feasible that is

 

[tommynt]

All right, now you're just trolling me. But I'm still going to respond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommynt View Post
OK now my few cents: you will need about 600+ (with peity) or 800+ (if Rationalism)overall culture in end to finish in a reasonable time (<300t).
This is pretty true. I was going to finish just over ~300 with 564 cpt. Also, though I'm sure you're not seriously suggesting this, rationalism for a culture game is a terrible idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommynt View Post
Some Landmarks allone wont get you there (even when I had 14 in my 265t GOTM win - that allone d not have been enough for a save win).
I would differ on that. By the end of the game, I had 11 landmarks (presumably less than you because I only had two cities) but these were providing me with 25 culture per turn each (12 + 50% Hermitage +33% for world wonder with piety +25% Sistine), or a shade over half my culture. Another 2 would actually have got me to your 600 cpt threshold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommynt View Post
The gain u get from 2 more artists i.e.fe. from 10 overall to 12 overall is just SO SLIM, there is NO WAY (and it should be obvious) that its worth skipping 2 engineers for important wonders.
I mean thats simple basics calculation for 4th graders
That its worth getting a engi for Louve over an artist as 2 > 1 is Kindergarden math
Actually, I got all the wonders I deemed important for this kind of strategy. The only wonder I wanted but didn't get is the Porcelain Tower, and even had I got it, I would not have gone for the two late-game cultural wonders. The whole point of doing this is that I could still get all the wonders I wanted by hard-building them, and get an extra 50 culture per turn from those two landmarks for the last 100 turns in the game. That's not negligible at all - it's about the cost of a late-game policy.

I'm not an expert at cultural victories (or at any type of victory), and don't claim to be. In this game I wanted to try out a unique take on the cultural victory. Even if it did not turn out to be the optimal victory style, it was probably entirely different from what anyone else has ever tried, and was not particularly unsuccessful, either (though an optimal game with two cities could probably have finished 20-25 turns earlier, and possibly delayed Bismarck's teching enough by getting the Porcelain Tower to barely eke out a victory). Eventually, I'll revisit this type of victory with a more conventional strategy.

Thx for the reasonable answer. I dont want troll anyone.
All I want is too stop spread of false information about the game. I play mp a lot and its obvious that there is a lot what the avarage civ player can improve when i see what y opponents or people on my team do.

And well the "best" approach to a cult game IS rationalism tree.
As said - Redundantor and Syndey TOTALY outweigh peity boni. So its obviously better to get them instead of the peity boni as fast as possible.

I think that a "top" deity cult game is possible in under 250t - there is no way u can achive this with some landsmarks only.
best city setup is probably 4 (I remeber doing a good occ with 3 own + a anaxed cap - just was missing coastal cap there for superfast win time).

I d NOT try to get any landmarks before you build Louvre - getting about 2 Engis and a scientist before is proly best. More early landmarks just make u grow more slowly. And hurt you in the medium run. And before modifiers they are useless anyway. Once 4 cities work 3 artist slots u pop an artist every about 5-6 turns thats enough to have 10 Landmarks at about t200 (with Louvre around t150 and operas which is maybe even late) when all modifiers kick in.

Ok now another thing:
Is it harder for an avarage civ player to play a 2 city setup instead of a 4 city one?
YES, PROBABLY IT IS, you have to make sure to build the necasary settlers and workers at the "right" times. You have to check happy better. Maybe AI will like you less.

Still why not take "the challenge" and improve rather then playing medium and loose anyway?

 

[Barth]

This is pretty true. I was going to finish just over ~300 with 564 cpt. Also, though I'm sure you're not seriously suggesting this, rationalism for a culture game is a terrible idea.

This is the kind of question that really intrigues me. So often in large, complex games like CiV you'll find strategies that seem completely counter-intuitive but end up being superior. The later policies cost so much more than early policies that some quick math shows some interesting things.

To start, it takes 30 SPs to unlock the Utopia Project. With 1 city on all standard settings you need a total of 80,930 culture for this. Let's just assume that you always get the Oracle, so that knocks it down to 72,995 culture required. Now for a Piety game let's say you get into the Classical era in time for your 3rd policy and run straight through, finishing with your 7th policy, popping the free policy from Free Religion on Theocracy and finishing Piety.

If you instead go for Rationalism you'll reach the later techs faster. For example, if you can't get the Sydney Opera House with Piety but by going Rationalism you are able to get it, that cancels out the benefit of Free Religion. And Cristo Redentor compared to the Piety finisher is surprisingly close. If you get CR with 10 policies left to go it saves you 5,130 culture, vs. the 6,450 culture the Piety finisher saves you.

So even though they come so much later, Rationalism and SOH + CR is only maybe 2-3 turns slower than Piety without those wonders. Now that's not counting other sources of extra culture in the Piety tree like Mandate of Heaven, Reformation, or the bonus culture from Free Religion, but I wouldn't be surprised if the faster teching (so earlier museums and broadcast towers) would make up the difference. And that doesn't even consider the other benefits of better tech, like better tiles from Chemistry/Fertilizer/Economics, access to stronger military units if needed, earlier access to non-cultural buildings to aid growth, etc. So oddly enough going Rationalism does seem like a viable strategy for a culture game.

 

[Mazer Rackham]

I don't play for culture often, but I ran an experiment one Immortal game where I opened Rationalism and switched to Piety after the important techs were RA'd. Piety has the free "extra policy" policy, so it's not like you are really needing to complete a greater number of SPs - though you do miss out on Scientific Revolution by not going through Rationalism. Going heavy Patronage gave me the science bonus from Scholastics and a gifted GS, though, so it probably ended up being better.

I was also warmongering and had a massive puppet empire - using Honor's policies and CS's to maintain happiness. It was a pretty fun game and I won around turn 290 (I left a single AI with their capital). As I said, I don't play for the cultural victory much so I'm sure my build order wasn't optimal. I also wasn't playing Monte which obviously would've contributed some nice kill culture in a warmonger game.

 

[tommynt]

Getting only rati opener ad then switching to peity sounds interesting.

 

[DaveMcW]

Getting only rati opener ad then switching to peity sounds interesting.

Just be careful to switch after all RAs finish.

 

[w a i n y]

Thx for the reasonable answer. I dont want troll anyone.
All I want is too stop spread of false information about the game. I play mp a lot and its obvious that there is a lot what the avarage civ player can improve when i see what y opponents or people on my team do.

And well the "best" approach to a cult game IS rationalism tree.
As said - Redundantor and Syndey TOTALY outweigh peity boni. So its obviously better to get them instead of the peity boni as fast as possible.

I think that a "top" deity cult game is possible in under 250t - there is no way u can achive this with some landsmarks only.
best city setup is probably 4 (I remeber doing a good occ with 3 own + a anaxed cap - just was missing coastal cap there for superfast win time).

I d NOT try to get any landmarks before you build Louvre - getting about 2 Engis and a scientist before is proly best. More early landmarks just make u grow more slowly. And hurt you in the medium run. And before modifiers they are useless anyway. Once 4 cities work 3 artist slots u pop an artist every about 5-6 turns thats enough to have 10 Landmarks at about t200 (with Louvre around t150 and operas which is maybe even late) when all modifiers kick in.

Ok now another thing:
Is it harder for an avarage civ player to play a 2 city setup instead of a 4 city one?
YES, PROBABLY IT IS, you have to make sure to build the necasary settlers and workers at the "right" times. You have to check happy better. Maybe AI will like you less.

Still why not take "the challenge" and improve rather then playing medium and loose anyway?

You know, your ideas are pretty reasonable. But why should I respond to them when you're basically insulting me for the entire post about not being as good a civ player as you are? Your last post was even worse. Please don't post anything here if you can't be tactful.

 

[Dai]

I've been trying to emulate this LP for a while (on Immortal, for the most part), and I keep running into the same issue, without exception: with a relatively smallish army, I am attacked early, and end up needing to divert resources to defense as I am attacked by wave after wave of warriors, then spearmen and archers, then horsemen and chariot archers, and so on. I can generally sue for peace, but typically at the cost of maintaining a happy empire or any gold production, and then often get bum rushed from some other angle. The defensive investment required to not get cities taken puts me behind the pace I feel I should be making, and constantly having cities surrounded, even when they're not taken, prevents me from working optimal tiles or improving them. (Since a worker would be too vulnerable.) I can win on Immortal with a little bit of luck, but my Immortal wins (and near-wins) normally start with significant investment in military while I grab NC, then using the tech boost that that grants to pith nearby threats. I don't understand how you manage to develop relatively unfettered. Siam is a relatively ideal neighbor, but even relatively tame civs can't seem to resist knocking down my doors if all I have is my starting warrior and maybe one other and an archer or two. I can also roll out cultural victories quite easily on Archipelago maps, but that solves the early AI aggression issue by more or less simply turning off their ability to conduct war, which doesn't really generalize to normal maps.

 

[w a i n y]

This is the kind of question that really intrigues me. So often in large, complex games like CiV you'll find strategies that seem completely counter-intuitive but end up being superior. The later policies cost so much more than early policies that some quick math shows some interesting things.

To start, it takes 30 SPs to unlock the Utopia Project. With 1 city on all standard settings you need a total of 80,930 culture for this. Let's just assume that you always get the Oracle, so that knocks it down to 72,995 culture required. Now for a Piety game let's say you get into the Classical era in time for your 3rd policy and run straight through, finishing with your 7th policy, popping the free policy from Free Religion on Theocracy and finishing Piety.

If you instead go for Rationalism you'll reach the later techs faster. For example, if you can't get the Sydney Opera House with Piety but by going Rationalism you are able to get it, that cancels out the benefit of Free Religion. And Cristo Redentor compared to the Piety finisher is surprisingly close. If you get CR with 10 policies left to go it saves you 5,130 culture, vs. the 6,450 culture the Piety finisher saves you.

So even though they come so much later, Rationalism and SOH + CR is only maybe 2-3 turns slower than Piety without those wonders. Now that's not counting other sources of extra culture in the Piety tree like Mandate of Heaven, Reformation, or the bonus culture from Free Religion, but I wouldn't be surprised if the faster teching (so earlier museums and broadcast towers) would make up the difference. And that doesn't even consider the other benefits of better tech, like better tiles from Chemistry/Fertilizer/Economics, access to stronger military units if needed, earlier access to non-cultural buildings to aid growth, etc. So oddly enough going Rationalism does seem like a viable strategy for a culture game.

This is rather contrarian, but I think you're right. I hadn't considered how the 2 free techs and RA boost might help get you enough culture earlier to counteract the culture you'd get from piety. However, going rationalism into piety à la Mazer Rackham seems even better, since you get the substantial tech boost (especially the 2 free techs) and then the free policy. This almost makes me want to do another culture game...

 

[w a i n y]

@Dai
Getting to math for a couple of catapults should help substantially. I was lucky in not getting attacked early, and have yet to show a cultural LP where I defend successfully. I would like to show this kind of thing, though, since it's a fairly common occurrence.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

It does seem that with only 2 cities the need for overall food is more important. (generally less cities Food > Happiness)

For a fast 2nd settler culture win I'd Probably go
Liberty Settler
Tradition or Worker
finish Piety (focus on growth and getting to Acoustics)
Aristocracy->Liberty until Acoustics
Legalism for Opera houses->finish Tradition
finish Liberty (use the GP for Louvre or Archeology or as a Landmark)... start placing Artist Specialists
THEN go into Freedom and spam Great Artists
(Then Patronage if you have a good gold supply)

If you waited until you had Tradition finished before filling up on Artist Specialists... particularly if you had the GS to fast pop Archaeology for faster Lovre+Museums... then you would have had more gold for CS, more production for buildings, etc.

 

[Barth]

This is rather contrarian, but I think you're right. I hadn't considered how the 2 free techs and RA boost might help get you enough culture earlier to counteract the culture you'd get from piety. However, going rationalism into piety à la Mazer Rackham seems even better, since you get the substantial tech boost (especially the 2 free techs) and then the free policy. This almost makes me want to do another culture game...

Definitely agree, once you've milked Rationalism for all it's worth going back into Piety is almost certainly better than just flinging points in Patronage or Commerce or whatever. If the game is peaceful enough you might only need 2 rounds of Rationalism boosted RA's to just about get all the techs you need, or at least close enough that you can finish the rest with hard teching, Oxford, and non-boosted RAs.

 

[omgsrsly]

i tried rationalism a couple of games and failed to make it work. part of that wasn't even the culture, i missed the early happiness and gold from some of the piety policies and i am rarely stuck for science in my culture games but money is always in short supply. going piety and then rationalism might work tho

haha i think commerce is the most underrated culture tech tree despite having one and sometimes two dud policies, i would always take more money over more science or more hammers

 

[w a i n y]

If you waited until you had Tradition finished before filling up on Artist Specialists... particularly if you had the GS to fast pop Archaeology for faster Lovre+Museums... then you would have had more gold for CS, more production for buildings, etc.

Except that production and gold are pretty unimportant once you finish the Louvre and museums. Production doesn't give you any culture by that point since there are no cultural buildings left and gold will get you 30 culture at the very most from CS (since you can probably be friends with all of them through lux sales alone). Of course, you want production for Utopia, which is why I made sure to grow in the final 50 turns.

Many people have mentioned how I had all my citizens working landmarks and missed out on growth and production. Although I was surprised at this happening, it really isn't that bad. A much bigger problem, in retrospect, was my slow teching. Although this is partially dependent on growth, it's much more dependent on getting the Porcelain Tower and Rationalism, both of which I would try next game.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Except that production and gold are pretty unimportant once you finish the Louvre and museums. Production doesn't give you any culture by that point since there are no cultural buildings left and gold will get you 30 culture at the very most from CS (since you can probably be friends with all of them through lux sales alone). Of course, you want production for Utopia, which is why I made sure to grow in the final 50 turns.

Many people have mentioned how I had all my citizens working landmarks and missed out on growth and production. Although I was surprised at this happening, it really isn't that bad. A much bigger problem, in retrospect, was my slow teching. Although this is partially dependent on growth, it's much more dependent on getting the Porcelain Tower and Rationalism, both of which I would try next game.

Well once you Have the museums you can generate the landmarks fairly rapidly.

Basically
Food+Production->Museums+Louvre early

Switch to Artist Specialists for fast Landmarks.
(With 4 Artists you can produce 12 base GPP... each Garden/Epic/Freedom adds another 3... thats 18 in one city, 21 in another)

Assuming no Wonders and no previous GPersons (not true but they probably balance out). you get 5 great Artists over the next 45 turns.

And they allow you to convert Food/Production to Culture (by replacing Mines+Farms)

You lose out on early culture... but you get the big culture earlier... and you get more Gold (City State Culture) and the Production can be used for units/other improving units
[also Food ->Gold through either Monarchy or Trade Routes]

The big thing for me would be more early food rather than early culture (your early production was probably about right)

 

[The Pilgrim]

A much bigger problem, in retrospect, was my slow teching. Although this is partially dependent on growth, it's much more dependent on getting the Porcelain Tower and Rationalism, both of which I would try next game.

Having 4 university slots filled and maneuvering around to avoid GS's could also help. Or not avoiding and bulbing Archeology/late techs for CR/SOH. Seems like with only 2 cities staying thin and not so tall is a luxury you cannot afford.

 

[w a i n y]

Well once you Have the museums you can generate the landmarks fairly rapidly.

Basically
Food+Production->Museums+Louvre early

Switch to Artist Specialists for fast Landmarks.
(With 4 Artists you can produce 12 base GPP... each Garden/Epic/Freedom adds another 3... thats 18 in one city, 21 in another)

Assuming no Wonders and no previous GPersons (not true but they probably balance out). you get 5 great Artists over the next 45 turns.

And they allow you to convert Food/Production to Culture (by replacing Mines+Farms)

You lose out on early culture... but you get the big culture earlier... and you get more Gold (City State Culture) and the Production can be used for units/other improving units
[also Food ->Gold through either Monarchy or Trade Routes]

The big thing for me would be more early food rather than early culture (your early production was probably about right)

I agree, it might have helped. I was just saying that growth and production don't matter once you get the Louvre and museums and until you get to Utopia.
Still, if we're talking about a 4-city game, liberty-first seems better. Representation provides -10% policy costs and 1/2 the time producing settlers (1 free, the other 2 at 2/3 cost), and you can avoid legalism until you can get free opera houses. Are you sure all that's worth giving up for growth and a token wonder bonus?

 

[vanjito]

Just don't worry yourself about artists until you finish Freedom, so you need to start finishing it as soon as possible - hence tech.

I'd also recommend to just wait with last Liberty for Louvre, until then Freedom, Piety, Tradition...
Sophia for PT ofc (you really need just the PT and Louvre).

Also, in your current game it seemed to me that it would have been better to bulid NC in second city - Mountain(!).
With Freedom, University, Observatory and NC a PT scientist planted there would yield a whooping 6*2*1,33*1,5*1,5=32
No need to overextend in tech, but a solid beaker base is mandatory.

Early RA's with beeline Education really do seem to come out somewhat... underwhelming
So, just sit on cash and wait 10-15 turns until you are sure you'll clear the cheap techs in time, no need rushing into bad RA's
Too bad you can't get some interest% when sitting on cash

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I agree, it might have helped. I was just saying that growth and production don't matter once you get the Louvre and museums and until you get to Utopia.
Still, if we're talking about a 4-city game, liberty-first seems better. Representation provides -10% policy costs and 1/2 the time producing settlers (1 free, the other 2 at 2/3 cost), and you can avoid legalism until you can get free opera houses. Are you sure all that's worth giving up for growth and a token wonder bonus?

Well I was thinking about a 2 city game.. (like yours) where Representation is really only for the Golden age and Meritocracy is nearly worthless.

For a 4 city, I'd probably go Liberty First, and it wouldn't be AS important to focus on food.

However in that case I wouldn't run any Artist Specialists in the "Landmark city"/Capital. It should be growing so that it can build Wonders and work Landmarks (to increase its raw culture... the other 3 cities can provide the Great Artists.)

That might be the plan.. 4 cities 3 are for pumping out Great Artists, One Hermitage city for working them.
In that case I would probably go Liberty, Piety, Freedom (with a Legalism stop off for Opera Houses) then Tradition and Patronage (because you would have more gold for City States)