Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by w a i n y, Jan 8, 2012.
I will try to have part 3 up overnight, and I'll post the initial save once the last video is up.
Looking forward to watching the B17 -> stealth rush indeed!
Just getting started with part 1 and wondering why you didn't go all out production for the GL given how risky a proposition it is
e.g. Washington hit size 4 and your empire was unhappy yet you chose to work the floodplains wheat for +0.25 and + 1 rather than the plains wheat for +1
I suspect that may have been the difference in losing the GL?
EDIT: Mostly through part 2 so wanted to hear your plans WAINY
1) When are you hoping to have stealth completed?
2) What is you SP path plan esp since you missed the PT?
PS: It seems criminal to delay a monastery in Washington so long with all the incense but I guess you have no real need to accelerate your SP path at the expense of other priorities...
1 production per wouldn't have saved me 2 turns (which I think was the difference). This was a mistake though, obviously the plains wheat is better.
Turn 200 would be great for everyone but Babylon and Korea, but it's pretty unlikely since I didn't focus on expanding super-early. 220? I really don't know, I've never tried this before.
As for social policies, it will be a mix of rationalism and patronage (bits of the left side of each).
I see you've uploaded 4-8 as well now. I'm buffering 4 now to watch it.
Edit: I just finished watching 4 and noticed the sound cut out about 39 minutes into it.
I must say, well done on keeping those AI friendly for so long. With no military units whatsoever, you're quite the target for them.
Thanks for the video series Wainy. After seeing how you micromanaged all your cities I was able to pull off getting stealth on turn 192 in my current game. Unfortunately I don't have any oil, aluminum nor coal. One my my allies gave me 3 coal so I have some factories almost finished. Luckily I have an 8 stack or aluminum on a small island that's unclaimed so I'll be sending a settler soon and one of the militaristic CSs has 7 coal and 7 oil. I should have the cash to ally them away from Egypt next turn.
Nice to see you beat me to Stealth . I can't say my run was especially optimal, but I hope I showed where I could have improved my time. About resources: I'll mention this in a video yet to be uploaded, but it doesn't matter how much oil you actually have, as long as you have some, because you're only going to be building B17s or bombers in a few core cities, and once you upgrade one you'll get the oil back to reuse. So you only need as many oil as you have production cities. You actually will want at least 11 aluminum for your stealth bombers and modern armour (and hydro plants, which I've finally seen the utility of).
My map ended up being small continents. It took a while to get that first oil, but now I have something like 12-15 stealth bombers a few tanks, a couple of modern armors, anti-tank guns, several destroyers, 3 nuclear missiles and 1 rocket arty (also gifted). All the melee units were gifted from my city state allies.
So far I've taken out most of Egypt and all the Greek cities Egypt took when they wiped out Greece. I sold some of them to Spain, keeping the aluminum, oil, Great Lighthouse and some lux I didn't have.
In a few turns I'll unlock the nuclear subs which I'll bulb with the 1 GS I generated recently. At this point I'm waiting on that and the next policy which comes about the same time so I can both get the nukes within range and take the policy that gives happiness for the science buildings to have enough of a buffer before the next assault.
I think Inca will be my next target, because they're at war with Egypt and Korea and Spain just denounced them. Spain is my closest neighbor, but we've been friends for most of the game, so I'm kind of saving them for later. After the Inca I'll prolly take out Persia then Korea, France and finally Spain.
My fist aluminum city wasn't settled on the aluminum, because the adjacent island ended up having 4 uranium, so I was able to build the city next to it, on top of some tundra stone and have the aluminum and 2 fish within the borders.
I think the only reasons I beat ya to stealth with just 3 GS are, I got the Porcelain Tower and used its GS to bulb astronomy just in time to take the Rationalism opener as my first policy after completing Liberty. The liberty finisher was a GE that got me the tower. Plus 3 of my cities, including the cap were next to mountains and I got both old faithful and the pair of barrier reefs where I could work them.
I'll upload a screenshot of my continent with its original 7 cities next time I crank up the game.
Of course, the porcelain tower on its own, with the extra GS for early rationalism and +25% bonus to RAs in its own right, would be easily enough to get you below the 200 range.
I'm not sure taking all those cities was a good idea, especially if you aren't planning to sell them. At this point in the game, you should be focused on getting to the end as quickly as possible.
I sold half the cities I took already, but I need some for resources and as staging points.
Here's my empire at turn 192 just before I bulbed stealth.
Here's 99 turns later when Paris was the last capital to fall.
At one point with all the cities I'd sold and those I kept, thanks to happiness from science buildings and such, I was up to almost 90 happiness. That is until Spain offered a bunch of cities for peace on the next to the last turn. I ended up with all the wonders that were built except the Brandenburg Gate, because Darius built it in one of his cities I didn't take.
I think in the next game, once I hit the Renaissance I'll add temples and opera houses to the mix to get the policies faster, because I want to get all of Rationalization, Commerce to the cheaper purchases and Autocracy to the cheaper unit purchases. That should cut the cost of buying units by about 58%. If I build or capture big Ben that should reduce the purchase costs by about 73%.
I guess my map was somewhere between small continents and archipelago.
For me to win on deity is an accomplishment in and of itself, but to do so in under 300 turn was pretty awesome.
BTW, I never got around to building Oxford.
I too have been giving the Stealth Bomber rush a try and also managed to grab it in turn 192.
Settled my first GS. Then bubbled astronomy with my second, taking rationalism and rush built the PT... all 1 turn before 7 RAs matured. Then it was plain sailing all the way through the tech tree to turn 192.
Such a luck filled game though.
-I managed to keep all AIs pretty friendly towards me
-No AIs got wiped out (before they needed to be)
-Plenty of resources to sell
-Both oil and plenty of aluminium inside my boarders
With the Brandenburg Gate built in my capital and popping 60xp bombers (+upgrading them) every 4 turns, the AI never knew what hit them. Like Monthar, it still took another 80-90 turns to win. Those carpets of doom take a while to thin out don't they.
@Wainy You really should have built a seaport in Boston. Yes its 2 maintenance, but with 4 sea resources that's 4 more production and the seaport adds 1 more gold to each of those 4 tiles, so in effect not only does the extra gold cover the maintenance cost of the seaport it also covers 2/3 the maintenance cost of the harbor. On top of that with the Commerce policy, Trade Unions, adding 1 gold per harbor and seaport, that's an additional 2 gold with both. Thus with both a harbor and seaport in Boston, you would have 5 maintenance for a gain of 6 gold and 8 production.
Harbor 3 maintenance 4 production 1 gold (from policy)
Seaport 2 maintenance 4 production 5 gold(1 from policy and 4 from sea resources)
The left side of the commerce tree is probably the worst possible thing to get for this map and strategy. Anyways, I do build the seaport eventually, but the video's probably not up yet
That's the first policy on the right side of the tree that also reduces the maintenance costs of roads/railroads.
It's one on the way to
Good times wainy, I watched the last few entries to see how you got on. Wow you majorly overshot your research so it ended being a bit of an inefficient approach to stealth, but gives you the nice side effect of being able to take the nuke techs for lolz. Even then you were stuck with a couple of basically worthless techs to take. One thing I would've liked to see you do is buy like 6 oil off Hiawatha instead of allying that city state to the south for alluminium. That would have allowed you to stick to the B17 upgrade plan which would have been good thematically but really doesn't matter results wise. You had that danish city to take out near your borders which gives you 8 alluminium.
I'm looking forward to catching some of the carnage with the Iroquios when things get ugly. I can't remember where their capital is located, I hope it's far from your border so you have some work to do. He's a monster by this stage so you should be able to get an epic peace deal from him like I did in my game against the inca. Once that happens it's good night AI as you can purchase more stealth bombers than you can even use.
If he had bought the oil and built the B17s and some regular tanks. I'll bet they still would have been enough to take the Aluminum city, especially since they would have been able to start with logistics. Then once the city was captured they could have been upgraded and the next set under construction.
On a side note, I started another game and ended up with Archipelago again. This time I only had 4 cities on my small continent and 2 more on the island to the east. I ended up with no aluminum nor uranium, but did have 4 oil in the water. I didn't save any of my GSs for the last few techs, because I noticed that if I used the 2 I was saving to build Biology and Steam Power, that kicked my medium up to the next stage for the 7 RAs I had coming due. I popped another GS shortly thereafter and used it to bulb Radio, thus shifting the medium up another notice. My RA's got me the tech to build the oil platform and all the bottom techs through uranium, plus a little. I popped another GS shortly thereafter and used it to bulb Radio, thus shifting the medium up another notice.
For getting stealth, I luckily timed it right to pop one more GS the turn before I finished Oxford so those two got me to the B17 and 3 or 4 turns later, on turn 212 I got the policy to give me the last 2 techs. So 20 turns later than my last good game, but still worked out well.
For most of the game I remained friendly with just about everyone. Right around the time I got stealth, Elizabeth went from friendly to hostile. On the AI's turn after my 1st B17 rolled out and was upgraded with some aluminum I got from Darius, a small English fleet arrived at Chicago. I they would likely attack as soon as I ended the turn, so I shifted focus to max out my GPT and took over 600 gold from her in trade. That, with the little I had saved I was able to take her maritime CS that had 8 uranium and a lux I was missing. Then I DoW'd her to get my GPT back. I followed that with bribing 2 of other civs she'd denounced into war with her.
At this point I had just 1 caravel out exploring and the 1 new logistics stealth bomber. The English fleet was 2 caravels, 2 pikes, a longbow and a cavalry. They were all dead before my caravel got back.
On the way back the caravel lit up 3 English cities in range of the SB's and I was able to 1shot 2 of them. the 3rd took 2 shots to break, but I still didn't have any melee units not ships to escort them over, so that was just target practice. The next turn my militaristic ally, on my continent, gave me an antitank gun. So I continued bringing my caravel back to escort it over.
I took the toughest of those 3 cities, because it has another 4 oil in the ocean. By this point I had 3 stealth bombers and destroyer to go with the lone antitank gun and caravel. That city I took put my bombers just in range of London. While leading my micro fleet towards London, Elizabeth built Cristo Redentor in a city I was near to, so I swung in and captured it only to be surprised that she'd also built Himeji Castle in that same city. The following turn she offered the 2 cities I passed by, some gold, GPT, etc for peace. I took the deal and sold those cities to Spain so I'd have some breathing room to finish building up, as well as the funds to secure more aluminum since I only had the 3 I got from Darius.
Since I was out of aluminum only had 1 oil and just finished the tech for nuclear power plants, I had all my cities build those. This took Chicago, the 1st one finished, to over 60 production.
I then noticed Askia's fleet near New York, so I decided it was time to take a break.
I would have really liked to see a road to Boston as well. The Harbor idea was a nice one, but impractical given the lack of production in the northern city and Boston's proximity to the rest of the empire (it was only four tiles away!) - this would've paid for itself quickly given how fast the growth was in Boston from the sea resources and would have allowed for the completion of the CS quest for a trade route.
I also think bulbing Electricity could have been worthwhile, but it's debatable: it was a relatively cheap tech, but it would have increased the median for at least one RA allowing the beakers from the RA to go into the backfill techs, revealed Aluminum which would have allowed allying a CS faster (potentially a cultural one, speeding up the Rationalism policy) and saved GPT in maintenance costs for the GS.
As always, thanks for doing these Wainy, I've enjoyed them all!
Have the Iroquois built the Apollo Program yet? I thought I saw a spaceship part announcement in the last video, but you didn't mention anything. If so, you could be in for a race to take them out quickly. Maybe I was seeing things though.
i agree. i'd try to knock off the iroquois as soon as i had enough stealths instead of saving them for the end. otherwise you may have to scramble if they get the UN up or start building the spaceship.
i also wonder about the opportunity cost of your early rush. it's probably worth all the cash and hammers, diplo hit and happiness for the added research, extra luxury and strategics, and peace deal, but it seems like a close call to me. obviously, it's nice to have an early army for deterrence, but you wouldn't have had to buy it (inefficient) if you'd foregone the rush (and they wouldn't have died). with all that space for city expansion, maybe you could have just turtled until stealth.
deity viewers and players learn pretty quickly that success depends mainly upon one's opening. if you're in reasonable shape at ~t150, you're going to win one way or another. it might be instructive to cook up a few LPs that run only through turn 100 or 150 as a way of showing opening variations based on different starting conditions.
keep up the great work.
I was thinking along the same lines. It was a heck of a lot of fun though.
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