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Wainy's Let's Play Deity - The Stealth Bomber (and GL Iron Working) Rush

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by w a i n y, Jan 8, 2012.

  1. clint0601

    clint0601 Chieftain

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    Just curious...why have you never improved your Fish tiles? The work boats only take a small time to make, 2 turns I think it said. Is the extra food and gold not worth the few turns it takes to build?
     
  2. w a i n y

    w a i n y Let's Play Deity!

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    I... um, forgot?
    Actually fishing boats (on fish) aren't that good. I'm fairly sure it's just an extra 1 food, which is negligible.
     
  3. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

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    I know with fishing boat and lighthouse the fish tile gives 5 food and with compass you also get 2 gold from the tile. Of course with just having the single fish in that city the lighthouse is prolly not worth it.
     
  4. w a i n y

    w a i n y Let's Play Deity!

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    Sure, but that's probably only 1 food and 1 gold from fishing boats, with the remaining 3 food from lighthouse (2) and base yield (1), and the remaining 1 gold from base yield.
     
  5. clint0601

    clint0601 Chieftain

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    I guess its not that big a deal, only 3 gpt for 6 turns of building the work boats. You might be able to get it to 1 turn each, but still I guess gold isnt an insanely huge priority when you hard build everything.
     
  6. Thresian

    Thresian Warlord

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    Good job. It looks like a won game to me. Like some other people said, if I were you, I would take out Hiawatha next, just in case he builds nukes or a spaceship.

    I'm not actually sure that the B17s add all that much. I mean, I agree notionally that it's a strong a UU, but it's not really necessary. A stealth bomber is only very slightly more expensive (in gold or hammers) than an ordinary bomber (or B17), so you're basically paying the upgrade cost to get the 'free' promotions, plus you need to worry about oil. The evasion is redundant, because stealth bombers get it any way (and in any case, although the AI spams fighters, it rarely sets them to intercept). Being able to get air repair or logistics out of the gate is nice, but not game changing, as you can get the promotions pretty quickly in any event: two of your stealth bombers already have both promotions. With any sort of stealth bomber rush, you're likely to tech stealth on the same turn as radar, so you can't pre-build the B17s. The best that could be said is that free promotions might shave a couple of turns off your win time, which might be just what you need to prevent the AI winning the space race.
     
  7. w a i n y

    w a i n y Let's Play Deity!

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    I totally agree.
     
  8. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

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    I'm about 11 minutes into video 14, waiting on the buffer to catch up. At this point you keep talking about fighting through Egypt then going after China. Since you already have open borders with Egypt, wouldn't it be better to just move the troops through and attack China first? Unless I miscounted, it looks like your SBs can reach at least the first few Chinese cities. Then as you move in you can start selling cities to the Iroquois. Sure it would take a few extra turns to get to the Chinese borders, but that would give time to get a nice happiness buffer as well as finish a few more SBs. Then when you started on the Egyptians you'd naturally be moving your units back towards the Iroquois and selling all their cities as you do.

    Also, rather than dealing with the 8 moves to get the GG over to the front, I would have burned it for a GA, especially since you were very unhappy anyway and your natural GA bucket was nearly empty. That would have helped finish a few more units and those happiness buildings a little faster. Besides, with enough SBs to take out their units, you really wouldn't need the GG's bonus.
     
  9. RedRover57

    RedRover57 Emperor

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    It would be rare that Hiawatha would even build the Manhattan Project, and the AI is so inefficient at a science VC that it would be surprising if they could pull one off before turn 300. Also, he is full friendly still so the threat isn't too great. If Wainy sells him some of the Egyptian cities that should keep him happy for a while.

    I see that you have an SP due soon. I forget where you are in policies, but are you going to go down Autocracy next? The +3 happiness per courthouse would eliminate all unhappiness problems until the end (you could mass annex after you get it), but I guess you would have to up your culture/turn to get there.
     
  10. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

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    The happiness from science buildings is also good. I went that route in one game and ended up with close to 100 happiness with lots of puppets.
     
  11. w a i n y

    w a i n y Let's Play Deity!

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    What I'm going to do probably works better. I think you'll like it.

    This is very true.

    This.

    I talk about this, in one of the videos that's not up yet. But you've come to the same conclusion as me.
     
  12. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

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    While waiting on the next videos I've been watching the Bab2lon bowman rush. I'm quite impressed with how you took those English cities so quickly. The tech rate is awesome with that academy.

    Now I was wondering if you'd do a Korean LP video series to compare their tech rate to the Babylonians. Perhaps even going for a Hwach'a rush. Sure it has a 25% penalty vs cities, but doesn't require iron like the Trebuchet does. The Trebuchet also has limited visibility, but the Hwach'a doesn't.

    Hwach'a - 8 combat and 25 range strength 25% penalty vs city so 18.75 vs city
    Trabuchet - 8 combat and 16 range strength 50% bonus vs city so 24 vs city.
    That's only about 28% less strength vs city for about 56% more dmg vs units.
     
  13. Old_Yoda

    Old_Yoda Chieftain

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    And if you include GG bonus (25%) + Morale Promotion (15%) which are often available, then it is:

    Hwach'a - 25*(1-0.25+0.25+0.15) = 28.75 vs. cities
    Trebuchet - 16*(1+0.5+0.25+0.15) = 30.4 vs. cities

    so they are almost the same against cities while the Hwach'a is still way stronger against units.
     
  14. vhhawk

    vhhawk Warlord

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    Wainy, you click through negotiations so fast that I am constantly worried you'll agree to a bad deal. :crazyeye: Seriously, my brain can't even keep up with that click speed.

    I'd love to see some nuking in this game but it looks like it will be over too quickly for any such fun. Do you have any other LPs where you get into a nukefest?
     
  15. w a i n y

    w a i n y Let's Play Deity!

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    I think my Songhai one has a fair bit of nuking, as does the last Ottomans one (how to take 3 capitals in 7 turns). But it's rather underwhelming without the combat animations. Hopefully things will be changed so quick combat can be turned on mid-game.
     
  16. w a i n y

    w a i n y Let's Play Deity!

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    The starting save for this one is attached. Thanks for watching! I'll be taking a few months off until the expansion comes out. Until then, a last thought for discussion: do you think stealth bombers are as game-breaking as I think they are?
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Thresian

    Thresian Warlord

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    Stealth bombers are certainly powerful, but I'm not sure they're exactly OP - late game units ought to be powerful. What is OP is the GS spam, which allows you to tech stealth by turn 200.
     
  18. w a i n y

    w a i n y Let's Play Deity!

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    This is certainly true, but even 100 turns later, the same set of 26 stealth bombers would still have been able to take over the world. There's no counter to them, especially among the AI (though the AI would win space or diplo by turn 350 obviously).
     
  19. RedRover57

    RedRover57 Emperor

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    Stealth bombers are absolutely game-breaking when you can get them so early. I have stopped using them in order to have more of a challenge. Basically that's why I prefer pangaea maps since continents require air warfare, as it is just too tedious on Deity to try to take the second continent for a domination VC with ground troops. It just seems cheesy to be able to reduce a 100+ strength city to rubble with no risk to yourself, and then cap it with ANY unit as long as it is reduced to 1 hit point. There needs to be a defensive counter to both stealth bombers and nukes, otherwise late stage warfare will continue to be a joke, particularly since the AI has absolutely no clue how to wage a later stage war. The only thing the AI can do is try to overpower you with numbers of ground troops, and ground troops are completely impotent in a stealth bomber war.
     
  20. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    GS bulbs combined with RA effectiveness makes their access abusive.

    and stealth bombers have just enough tweaks to make them abusive when you can beeline to them. get rid of their heal/repair and you have to slow down in terms of aggression. or put them in a later tech. or make them more expensive to build. or a max at how many can be stationed in a city.

    but at least they cant station on a carrier (i learned that the hard way, haha) and only 1 unit can upgrade into it (not counting UUs). so they have their "limits", haha.

    btw, thanks for the save file. i may try it out. ive only seen the first 3 or 4 of the LPs which is just enough to get me through the first 100 turns without getting embarrassed.
     

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