Walls and Castles

[DrJambo]

Walls:
+50% defence (except gunpowder units)
-50% damage vs bombardment
Obsolete with Rifling

Castle
+50% defence (except gunpowder units)
-25% damage vs bombardment
+1 trade route
+1 culture
+25% espionage
Obsolete with Economics (except defence stuff...)

So, questions:

1. Are cannons, artillery, tanks, modern armour, cavalry, etc, considered gunpowder units? Or are these still considered siege, armour and mounted, and this exemption is strictly for true 'gunpowder units', eg. riflemen, infantry, marines, mech inf?

2. Apparently only the non-defensive bonuses of a castle become obsolete with Economics. Therefore, when do the actual defensive bonuses become obsolete? Never?

 

[gunter]

Good question indeed ,I am curious about the answers....

 

[narmox]

Purely from my experience:

walls/castle protection never expires with any tech, it just disappears when faced with a certain unit. Try this test:

Find an enemy city that has walls and castle. Have 2 units handy. One is a pre-gunpowder era unit (catapult, longbowman, maceman, doesn't matter). the other is a post-gunpowder era unit (musketman, cannon, tank, doesn't matter).

Select the pre-gun unit, and you will see the city's defense is 100%. Select the other unit and the city's defense will be the cultural defense only (0-100% depending on the culture).

That's how their defense expires, when you face only units that are post-gun So in this case yes, cavalry, cannon, arty, etc considered gunpowder units.

Narmox

 

[GoliathFF8]

I thought that the defensive bonuses became obsolete with Rifling. Not sure though, I'll have to check that.

 

[Soneji]

They do, but you stil get cultural defence. And bonus if you are on a hill.

 

[Ricci]

Gunpowder units are all those you mentioned for this matter, cavalry, musquetman, tanks, airbourne rangers (parachuttes).. etc. They attack considering only the cultural defenses. Cannons bombard directly the cultural defenses also (20%, 40%, 60%.. + 25% with the Chichen Itza). But, what happens if you have gunpowder units to attack and trebuchets to break down those defenses, you still have to bombard the old fashion walls & castles with their bombardment penalties. This is why this built up defenses are so important even in the middle game (renaisance and Ind age.. prior to cannons).

Two points in regards:

- Castles bacome obsolete too early, they can't even be built post economics though their defensivness is still very valuable (should be pushed to rifling i think).

- I am not certain about cannons, though bombarding directly cultural defense, being penalized with walls & castles -50%/-75% to bombardment.

 

[winddbourne]

I agree either castles come to late or obsolete too early in normal speed games. I find myself rushing to build them as soon as I can, in as many cities as I can for both the defense bonus and the espionage bonus.

As it is economics is in the same general "tech column" as gunpowder, and castles were in use for quite some time after gunpowder was developed. Rifling might be a good choice, but I think STEEL makes a better option.

Steel comes after rifling giving us a little bit longer to play with our castles, and steel gives cannon. Castles and other medieval fortifications are cannon-ball-degradable. Enough cannons outside your walls and the castle really is a obsolete. So it just seems more realistic.

Definitely better than economics. How does having a strong economy wear away at your strong fortifications?

 

[greggbert]

Castles are still the best building in the game, and probably would be even if they only gave you the extra trade route. But they also give you defense, culture and espionage as well!

 

[LedHead]

Cannons should be at gunpowder. Iron and steel cannons weren't used until long after bronze cast cannons were the standard. Even then they were expensive.

Maybe accessible at gunpowder and upgraded at steel? Frigates (chemistry) have cannons on them but ground troops don't for another tech? a bit backwards there... (been mentioned before)

Castle type fortifications were used up until WW1 Germany crushed Denmark's (i believe) from afar ending their worth. So guess rifling would be their down fall. accurate long range projectiles. The guns themselves were deemed worthless as bigbirtha was less effective vs. modern concrete steel and earthen fortifications. These weren't castles by this stage more like a bunker. tuns of steel and concrete with a lower profile.

 

[Unthinking Pain]

If I'm Protective or have Stone (or both) I generally try to get Engineering early enough to build Castles. They go up pretty quick and provide income, defense, espionage and culture. You also pick up faster road movement and Pikemen, which are both damn handy. I think beelining past Engineering is not always the right choice. It's a damn good tech.

 

[Virulent]

If you are playing Spain, you at least want an Citadel in your military city due its exp bonus to siege weapons as it's a lot harder for siege units to gain exp in BtS.