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Walls or Defender

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Osbiath, May 16, 2013.

  1. Osbiath

    Osbiath Prince

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    Something I have been wondering for a while now: if you were under attack and you only had enough time to make either a wall or extra defender; which would be the better option?
     
  2. Handel

    Handel Prince

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    Most player consider building a wall to be waste of hammers. Still the wall may be useful sometimes if only to delay the attack couple of turns (until AI catapults reduce the defenses) on an relatively new city. On the other hands it depends on your number of the defenders and the number of enemy attackers too. If 10 attackers are coming for 2 defenders I doubt the wall will help a lot. But I doubt 3 defenders vs 10 attackers with 0% - 20% defense will last a long too.
     
  3. Kallikrates

    Kallikrates Prince

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    Probably defender. Especially if you have a barracks or are in war civics Another longbow with CG I or II is probably worth more than a wall that will be reduced anyway. It also depends on the cultural defense bonus you already have. But I do not remember how well the AI does with reducing the defense bonus. If it stops to reduce defenses first, a wall might buy you much more time to build more defenders or preferably attack the attackers with siege etc.
     
  4. Skipity

    Skipity Chieftain

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    Build walls when the enemy is barreling down on a city with a SoD.

    Not before (unless izzy for her UB)
     
  5. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    The more defenders you already have, the stronger a wall becomes.

    Bear in mind that when an AI stack is reasonably large, but only has a small amount of siege, that a wall is easily the best build you can pick since the ai *will* spend many, many turns to bombard the city before attacking it.
     
  6. Osbiath

    Osbiath Prince

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    Thanks for the tips :)

    What about in a player vs player game? Are walls of any value then?
     
  7. Skipity

    Skipity Chieftain

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    Again, not until someone is barreling down on you. And even then it's questionable. You'll probably be better off throwing another catapult at their stack once they are within your cultural boarder.

    But I'm not a PvP expert.
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Walls are not great in pvp but not useless. If you have a large enough stack such that the defensive bonus from a wall gives you more % to win battles than an additional unit, you should build the wall.

    Against the AI, if you trade into engineering it is fully possible that an AI, even on immortal+, spends its entire time during the war bombarding just that 1 city with the castle such that it isn't even finished by the time you can buy out of it.

    In that case, it's probably worthwhile to whip the walls/castle.

    Just don't spam them everywhere like the AI. They do the job they're intended to do well enough; allow pressured cities more reaction time vs siege or force pre-siege stacks to attack into prohibitively high defenses (IE axes can't even attack swords effectively).
     
  9. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Walls don't cost you in unit maintenance and in a new city add significantly to defender's odds, if you're protective or have stone a wall is the same cost as an archer.
     
  10. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I build siege.

    I always figure, if the AI is getting through to attack my cities, I've done something wrong. (after they have siege of course) It's always hilarious watching Monty attacking cultured cities defended by axes, with his jags. Occasionally I may get caught leaning the wrong way, but it is not common,
     
  11. Nexlev

    Nexlev King

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    I only build walls if I'm protective or it's a unique building. To answer your question though, if an attack is imminent in most cases a defender would be better.
     
  12. 6K Man

    6K Man Bureaucrat

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    If you have 0 or 1 defenders, a defender.

    If you have 7 defenders, a wall, assuming you aren’t facing a ton of seige.

    If you have 2-6 defenders… it depends.
     
  13. Mec AntiKythera

    Mec AntiKythera King

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    Stone or no stone? Do you have units in other cities that can be sent over to help out if you delay the attack a bit? Will you have enough pop left over to whip again if the AI stops to bombard city defenses?
     
  14. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    As TMIT said, walls/castles have a specific job to do, you should learn that job. Let's say you have 8 cities and 6 of them are far from your borders but 2 of them are close to the enemy. In fact, the enemy could come in and hit one of your cities with mounted units within 2 turns after declaring war. You're going to want most of your armed forces near those two cities, ready to protect them. In this case you might very well want to build walls in both cities. Maybe even castles later on. You don't want to be in a situation where your army is better than your opponent's, but his army will get to your city in 2 turns and it will take yours 3 turns. In that case you may very well destroy his stack but you will lose your city.
     
  15. Robert FIN

    Robert FIN Monty n' Roll

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    I have no idea. Let the experts talk ;)! Just nice to see you posting here again, my friend!!
     
  16. z0wb13

    z0wb13 undead

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    walls are better the more units you have, and the higher their base strength. assuming that you can whip the next turn either one unit or a wall, and you have enemies waiting at the gates, take a few examples:

    you have one archer in a city=> whip another archer. this might happen if you get unlucky with a barb event. if the ai roles up with an army on this city, just give it up and move on. walls aren't going to help, unless the ai decides to bombard them with 1 catapult for the next 13 turns (in which case this is a viable strategy).

    you have 3 archers in a city=> this is a break even point, of sorts. 4 archers times 4.5 strength while inside a city = 18, and 3 archers are 6 strength with walls = 18. still, walls can be bombarded, and having at least 1 more unit than the attacker means that they can't capture your city on that turn.

    6-8 archers in a city=> here, walls are better on paper, but not by that much. of course, you must have seen this attack coming if you have that many defenders in a city. 8 archers * 4.5= 36; 9 archers= 40.5; 8 archer + walls= 48 defense.

    6-8 longbows in a city=> 8 LBs w/ walls = 10.5*8= 84. which is better than 9 lonbows*7.5=67.5
    with longbows, the advantage shifts to walls at around 6 units, while cities on hills might prefer more units. still, the cheese of walls is that the ai might decide to bombard walls down to 0%, and that usually takes 3-4 turns, so if you can manage to move a few extra troops in before then it still might be worth it.

    the take away from this is that usually building another unit is better than a wall, unless you already have a pretty large garrison in place. also, if you can build the specific counter to a unit, this is usually better than the walls extra defense. however this ignores the ai's tendency to bombard city defenses down to 0% before attacking. despite having superior forces, if the ai only brought 2 catapults, it might spend the next 7 turns on bombard, which could buy you enough time to move a sizable garrison inside the target city.
     
  17. Tephros

    Tephros Caffeine Junkie

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    I generally agree with this. It also depends on if the enemy stack has no siege, few siege, or many siege. If they have 1-2 siege and you have >3 defenders, build a wall to buy time for reinforcements to arrive or be built. If they have no siege, build a unit unless you have >6 units already. If they have many siege a wall won't buy enough time to be worth it and I'd consider building a siege unit because that's the only one that won't be reduced to worthless by collateral damage. If they have no spears/elephants I'd also consider building a horse archer with high withdrawal who can damage their strongest unit and several siege at once, and then run away to fight a winable battle later. Frankly, I sometimes "abandon" a city (+/- leaving behind one unit) in order to consolidate my forces elsewhere for a winable battle. Units that just get collateralled to nothing and then get easily killed help your enemy more than you.
     
  18. rfcfanatic

    rfcfanatic Mercantilist

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    In coastal cities - both preferrably. And Castle as well. The AI loves to sneak-attack coastal cities from sea.
     
  19. Darth Revan

    Darth Revan Chieftain

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    I personally prefer extra defender so that the enemy has to use an unit more to capture your city (with exception of tanks, modern armour or previous units with the promotion which let to do more than one attack in a turn). The defender is with no doubts better if the city is buit on a hill and can produce skilled troops thanks to civics or building on the city.
     
  20. sinimusta

    sinimusta el capitano

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    Skills don't matter in case of immediate attack, you might not be able to promote in time. Walls can either buy you time to whip more defense or give your troops better odds, so with enough defenders should be woth it.

    Sometimes AI doesn't bother bombarding the defense down and in these cases walls are good. Like ai captured a border city and goes on after next ones, mounted units make stupid attacks before main stack is in place.
     

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