Walls

Vitruvian Guar

Warlord
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Sep 19, 2024
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I really like the fact that walls can circle multiple tiles. But I think there is a problem with building them tile by tile. The process is micro heavy, and it looks weird, when the walls are twist and turn with every tile border.

So, I think a superior solution would be to have separate decisions to build a whole layers of walls: inner, medium and outer. Inner walls are simply the walls around the city center. Medium walls form a hexagon around six tiles connected to the city center and outer walls around 12 tiles connected to these 6 tiles. Like this:

1734938682057.png

Blue - inner walls
Purple - medium walls
Red - outer walls

Construction the layer of walls is available when all the land tiles inside them belong to this settlement and, with the exception of mountains, have some improvement, be it rural or urban. The order of which layer is build first doesn't matter - nothing prevents from having only outer walls, for example, without inner and medium level.

This would lead to less micro, prettier hexagonal shape of walls and an extra reason to build settlements in a more natural, interconnected manner.
 
Something definitely needs to be done. The current walls are an eyesore beyond belief. This feels like a good first step that would be fairly simple to implement.
 
I really like the fact that walls can circle multiple tiles. But I think there is a problem with building them tile by tile. The process is micro heavy, and it looks weird, when the walls are twist and turn with every tile border.

So, I think a superior solution would be to have separate decisions to build a whole layers of walls: inner, medium and outer. Inner walls are simply the walls around the city center. Medium walls form a hexagon around six tiles connected to the city center and outer walls around 12 tiles connected to these 6 tiles. Like this:

View attachment 713127
Blue - inner walls
Purple - medium walls
Red - outer walls

Construction the layer of walls is available when all the land tiles inside them belong to this settlement and, with the exception of mountains, have some improvement, be it rural or urban. The order of which layer is build first doesn't matter - nothing prevents from having only outer walls, for example, without inner and medium level.

This would lead to less micro, prettier hexagonal shape of walls and an extra reason to build settlements in a more natural, interconnected manner.
And with this. upkeeps should be a decision that limit the number of walls being built.
As with Gunpowder warfare. now defensive buildings will change. but should there be a dedicate 'Fortress' district that occupies one full hex but very very strong? and concepts of defensive buildings of Modern Age.. what should it be if walls are no longer viable or will be more expensive (Paris kept their defense capable City Walls until 1920 when it became clear that this city walls are useless in a Modern Warfare. Other cities abandoned city walls long before, only those 'heritage' ones retained. particularly in a city that experiences no significant growths.d
 
Something definitely needs to be done. The current walls are an eyesore beyond belief. This feels like a good first step that would be fairly simple to implement.
This coupled with Egyptian Necropolis district that becomes evenmore unique without walls. anyone playing Egypt must choose niche bonus of income or defensive capabilities.
 
This coupled with Egyptian Necropolis district that becomes evenmore unique without walls. anyone playing Egypt must choose niche bonus of income or defensive capabilities.
Are you suggesting that walls take up a building slot? Because they don’t. Walls can be built in districts with two buildings.
 
It could be similar to the system in Memoriapolis: there is one wall project available in each age. You can decide yourself how big the radius is, but the cost increases with the length of the wall. I.e., if you have spare production in antiquity, your wall can include some empty tiles to be filled later on. If you are tight on production, you might not defend all districts with the walls.
 
Something definitely needs to be done. The current walls are an eyesore beyond belief. This feels like a good first step that would be fairly simple to implement.

I'm going to search for examples myself, but since I am trying to not look at too much from Civ VII, do you have an example at hand?

< is this an example of an eyesore? (45:04 of the Modern Age Civ Stream on YouTube)
 
Imo think the current system seems fine (except maybe allowing walls to be built around wonders also - it seemed you can't do that, which ended up looking weird?) and I don't think they're likely to change it at this stage, but they'd benefit from a visual overhaul. I reckon if towers didn't appear at every corner and perhaps if some corners curved a little instead, it'd look less obviously hexagonal. Better matching the colour of the walls to the environment or add more city style variants (as they've got with Songhai) would make also them less obstrusive imo.
 
Are you suggesting that walls take up a building slot? Because they don’t. Walls can be built in districts with two buildings.
my guess. but are you sure about that? that walls don't use building slot in any districts.
 
I'm going to search for examples myself, but since I am trying to not look at too much from Civ VII, do you have an example at hand?

< is this an example of an eyesore? (45:04 of the Modern Age Civ Stream on YouTube)
Yes, that was the same example I posted here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-in-the-franchise-so-far.693541/post-16728116

That screenshot also highlights another feature of the current wall system that's nonsensical: By basically having the wall snake up on itself instead of just going around the outer perimeter, you end up with a total wall lengths that's somewhere between 150 and 200 % the length of what it actually needed to be to cover the same number of tiles (and more!), which is obviously something people would never do in real life.

I agree that the way Memoriapolis handles walls is, if not perfect, then pretty elegant and meaningful.
 
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I like the current system for walls, where each urban district you build them into in an extra tile that need to be breached to take over an city. While it then has the consequence of looking a bit weird as you chose the districts you want them to cover each time and they cover each district, I prefer how it is for the gameplay and readability it provides, both for you own and when you may attack enemy settlements.
 
The problem with straightening out the hex-edge zigzags is that it means either intruding into neighboring hexes or reducing the available space within fortified districts' own hexes. Either option significantly impacts the building layout in each hex, which given the complicated way the buildings are arranged is not a trivial problem.
 
It could be similar to the system in Memoriapolis: there is one wall project available in each age. You can decide yourself how big the radius is, but the cost increases with the length of the wall. I.e., if you have spare production in antiquity, your wall can include some empty tiles to be filled later on. If you are tight on production, you might not defend all districts with the walls.

It also makes historical sense. Often the city walls would incorporate countryside. The original walls of Constantinople were built with a lot of rural land inside and the city only later expanded to meet them.
 
Yes, that was the same example I posted here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-in-the-franchise-so-far.693541/post-16728116

That screenshot also highlights another feature of the current wall system that's nonsensical: By basically having the wall snake up on itself instead of just going around the outer perimeter, you end up with a total wall lengths that's somewhere between 150 and 200 % the length of what it actually needed to be to cover the same number of tiles (and more!), which is obviously something people would never do in real life.

I agree that the way Memoriapolis handles walls is, if not perfect, then pretty elegant and meaningful.
1. I see. very lousy and historically inaccurate.
2. What is 'Memorialolis'?
3. And I don't see Diamond shaped bastions jutted out of a city wall's corner at all.
4. And the Modern Age how will city defense be? a new generation of concrete walls just like The Berlin Wall or what's featured in Israel today?. or a cluster of bunkers with chain link fences surrounding a city?
 
1. I see. very lousy and historically inaccurate.
2. What is 'Memorialolis'?
3. And I don't see Diamond shaped bastions jutted out of a city wall's corner at all.
4. And the Modern Age how will city defense be? a new generation of concrete walls just like The Berlin Wall or what's featured in Israel today?. or a cluster of bunkers with chain link fences surrounding a city?
2. memoriapolis is a city building game currently in early access. One of the main differences to most other city builders is that it features ages, actually quite similar to civ VII in that regard.
4. or like early modern star fortresses (Neuf-Brisach for example) or like 19th century fortresses (Ulm for example)
 
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2. memoriapolis is a city building game currently in early access. One of the main differences to most other city builders is that it features ages, actually quite similar to civ VII in that regard.
4. or like early modern star fortresses (Neuf-Brisach for example) or like 19th century fortresses (Ulm for example)
Polygonal Forts of Palmerston period? https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/polygonal-fort.693376/.
What should it be? A wall or an entire quarter?
 
Polygonal Forts of Palmerston period? https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/polygonal-fort.693376/.
What should it be? A wall or an entire quarter?
A quarter for walls doesn‘t make sense. It could be an improvement, in case something like military engineers still exists. Otherwise it will just be around districts, just as the older walls.

I'm personally a fan of Vauban's architecture, but I believe this would be better suited for a fortress improvement than civ's city defenses.
 
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I'm going to search for examples myself, but since I am trying to not look at too much from Civ VII, do you have an example at hand?

< is this an example of an eyesore? (45:04 of the Modern Age Civ Stream on YouTube)
oh my God it looks horrible

They didn't make any effort to smooth it out as they have had for roads, rivers, etc for the longest time

And yeah there should absolutely be a military quarter / fortress district option available
 
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