Wang Kon: What a bizarre leader choice!

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MisterBarca

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As a Korean national and an author who has been published on Korean matters to boot, I have to register my befuddlement regarding the choice of Wang Kon as the sole Korean leader in Civilization IV. In fact, I don't think I am exaggerating when I say that there is literally no conceivable justification for Wang's election. None.

Now I realize that Civilization IV is ultimately a game which must devote the majority of its resources to gameplay issues. Yet given the historical nature of the game, you must exhibit at least a modicum of historical fidelity. In the least, you cannot make a leader choice this arbitrary.

So how does Wang--out of dozens of candidates--become the sole representative of 2200 or so years of Korean history (I discount the mythical beginnings of the Korean people, encapsulated in the Dan Goon myth)?

Was he Korea's greatest king? Absolutely not. There are only two Korean kings who have been bestowed the title "dae-wang" ("great king") posthumously. Sejong and Kwang-gae-to. Sejong for his peacetime achievements and Kwang-gae-to for his military achievements.

There are a few kings whom some historians consider superior to the two--e.g. Sejong's father or his second son--but Wang is not one of them. Neither his peacetime nor military achievements are that noteworthy. In particular, as anyone familiar with Korean history will tell you, even the real consolidation of the dynasty he founded was not achieved until Gwang Jong, Wang's energetic grandson.

Ah, but Wang founded a dynasty--the Koryo dynasty! So what? There have been many dynasties in Korean history. Was Koryo the most powerful Korean dynasty? No. The title belongs to Koguryo. Was it the longest-lived dynasty? No. Silla was. Was it the first dynasty to unify the Korean peninsula? No. Again, Unified Silla was--albeit the "unification" was largely incomplete and reached only up to the Dae-dong River. Was it the most culturally vibrant dynasty? No. Though precise measure is difficult due to the subject matter, again Unified Silla likely was. Finally, did Koryo then at least encompass most of the present-day Korea? No. The Chosun dynasty, which Yi Song-gye founded by demolishing Koryo, was.

And if we expand the roster of candidates and include those who were not actual kings but "leaders," Wang's selection is even more mystifying. For instance, there are at least two soldier-statesmen who are more deserving. Yon Kae-so-mun, the Korean Caesar, crushed legions after legions sent against him by Tang Taizong, almost universally considered China's greatest king (who should also have been included as Chinese king) while China was at one of its peak periods. Park Chung-hee, one of the truly great nation builders in modern history, buoyed Korea from the mud of backbreaking poverty to its current status as top 10 or 11 economies in the world--while staving off a totalitarian regime bent on its subjugation.

And you pick Wang Kon? LOL!

Again, there is very little noteworthy and certainly nothing singular about the man Wang Kon or the dynasty he founded. The fact that Firaxis chose to name him is indicative of the company's ignorance and/or carelessness about historical accuracy.
 
My guess is that he was included for the ability to sing "Everybody Wang Kon Tonight"

EDIT: I'm not kidding.
 
:lol: :lol: :lol:



At times they seem to run a thin theme of "unification" among some of their leader choices.


I also believe some of the same type of general arguments could be made valid for any single leader choosen to be the masthead of any culture/civilization destined to become a 6,050 year empire.
 
I should also add that even as dynastic founder, Wang Kon only did at most half the work. In fact, one could argue that the real founder of Koryo was Gung Ae, the mad monk under whom Wang served.

When Gung Ae went totally psycho with his "gwan-sim-beop," his generals revolted and simply replaced Gung Ae with Wang. There was virtually no change in the transition from Gung Ae to Wang. Wang kept the same capital, the same elites, largely the same laws, and the only change was the name of the dynasty. Contrast this with Yi Song-gye's dissolution of Koryo and the founding of Chosun. The capital moved from Kaesong to Seoul, the pro-Koryo loyalists were brutally purged, and the administrative regime was completely re-organized.

To those who think I am making too big a deal out of this: What would you say if the sole American leader was John Hancock?
 
drkodos said:
:lol: :lol: :lol:



At times they seem to run a thin theme of "unification" among some of their leader choices.


I also believe some of the same type of general arguments could be made valid for any single leader choosen to be the masthead of any culture/civilization destined to become a 6,050 year empire.

There are a few leaders who would not be my first choice among other civilizations. For instance, I would think Lincoln would be prior to FDR. But none of those Firaxis choices are as flagrantly bizarre as this one.
 
To the OP: I had never heard of Wang Kon, for one thing. Thanks for all of the info.
But I'm wondering, must not there be some reason for including him? I'm certainly not questioning any information in your post, but let's use America as an example: I think that, if Firaxis wanted an Industrious leader for the US, Roosevelt just makes more sense than Lincoln, given the public works projects of the 1930s. So as much as I miss old Abe in the game, it makes sense to me.

Considering it's the Warlords expansion, might there be something that would have led them to include WK?
 
Esox said:
To the OP: I had never heard of Wang Kon, for one thing. Thanks for all of the info.
But I'm wondering, must not there be some reason for including him? I'm certainly not questioning any information in your post, but let's use America as an example: I think that, if Firaxis wanted an Industrious leader for the US, Roosevelt just makes more sense than Lincoln, given the public works projects of the 1930s. So as much as I miss old Abe in the game, it makes sense to me.

Considering it's the Warlords expansion, might there be something that would have led them to include WK?

The only reason for including Wang I can think of is:

He founded the dynasty that gave Korea its Western name. That is "Koryo," the dynasty he founded, became Romanized as "Korea."

But even that rationale is reed thin. As I have said, the real founder of Koryo was Gung Ae.

Further, Wang was an accidental founder in that essentially he was in the right place at the right time. Gung Ae became insane and his generals thought Wang--a mild-mannered man--was the best replacement. Subsequently, Wang was a very weak ruler and it wasn't until his grandson Gwang Jong that Koryo's institutions really crystallized.
 
Hey, they choose Alexander the Great for Greece. He's not even the correct nationality. Gandhi, who was never a national leader for India. And they put the Zulus in for some reason. Who's to know Firaxis's motives.
 
Thehistoryman said:
Hey, they choose Alexander the Great for Greece. He's not even the correct nationality. Gandhi, who was never a national leader for India. And they put the Zulus in for some reason. Who's to know Firaxis's motives.

Alexander was the leader of the Greek-speaking peoples, and he did spread Hellenism through the known world. Gandhi, while not a head of state, was the spiritual leader of India during its final colonial years. He was also politically active.

Wang's case is a bit different. He's an accidental king who reigned as an extremely weak king--almost a puppet of the nobles who put him there. His inclusion is just unconscionable.
 
Your knowledge of Korea really helped me. I knew little about the country. Thehistoryman is right when talking about the misterious reasons behind the decisions of Firaxis. Zulus are a good example.

In my modest opinion (I study History, but certainly never saw the Korean History deeply), some emblematic leaders can be chosen instead of those who were really important. For example, we could think Montezuma II did very little to Aztlan (Montezuma the first, Auhizotl, Axayacatl or Nezahualcoyotl are all of them greater than our Monty).

In any case, I would like to watch Queen Min as future leader in Korea. The UB is great, the UU is nice and the traits are helpful. So, I'm happy with that civ.
 
I guess my point is that most Korean historians recognize that Wang was rather an unexceptional man. When he was serving under Kung Ae as general, he was competent but nothing special. He had his share of losses, along with wins. He was likely not Kung Ae's best general either for his personal prowess or strategic acumen. As a king, he was weak and really a plaything of the nobles who put him in power. In fact, the Taebong nobles put Wang in power to replace Kung Ae precisely because they knew he was harmless and pliable. As I have mentioned, Koryo didn't become a strong monarchy until the Machiavellian Gwang Jong's reign.

When you strip away Wang's "founding" of Koryo--which is a misleading description of the beginning of Koryo and Wang's role in it to begin with--Wang was a Warren Harding equivalent.
 
benjamin28 said:
Your knowledge of Korea really helped me. I knew little about the country. Thehistoryman is right when talking about the misterious reasons behind the decisions of Firaxis. Zulus are a good example.

In my modest opinion (I study History, but certainly never saw the Korean History deeply), some emblematic leaders can also be chosen. For example, we could think Montezuma II did very little to Aztlan (Montezuma the first, Auhizotl, Axayacatl or Nezahualcoyotl are all of them greater than our Monty).

Thanks for your encouragement.

For the record, I applaud Firaxis for including Korea in the game, and I love this game in general. Its unit balance and gameplay complexity are top notch.

So I don't want to come off sounding too harsh, and I am certainly not anti-Firaxis or anti-Civ IV.
 
Well, I'm sure part of the reason why he is in Warlords is that he was in Play the World. But that doesn't answer why he was in PTW.
 
Maybe Firaxis wanted to put in a lesser-known leader.

It is their game, after all.

Maybe they put him in so you could make him the greatest Korean leader? ;)
 
Thehistoryman said:
Hey, they choose Alexander the Great for Greece. He's not even the correct nationality. Gandhi, who was never a national leader for India. And they put the Zulus in for some reason. Who's to know Firaxis's motives.

alexander spoke greek, ruled over greece, its good enough.

as for the korean thing, dont much care:).
 
Louis XXIV said:
Well, I'm sure part of the reason why he is in Warlords is that he was in Play the World. But that doesn't answer why he was in PTW.

Wasn't Sejong in PTW as well? That would have been more conventional choice that no one would have raised an eye about. And if Firaxis wanted to be bold, they could've gone with Park Chung-hee (sure to be controversial because he was a modern dictator) or Yon Kae-so-mun (less controversial because he was an ancient dictator).
 
No, only one leader for PTW.
 
Or, if Firaxis wanted to choose a warlike king to fit the "Warlords" theme, they could've gone with Kwang-gae-to, who was the greatest conqueror in Korean history. (Or again, Yon, who was a "warlord" who smashed Chinese forces after Chinese forces when China was at its peak.)

Wang was neither a great general nor a great king. At best, he was a "nice guy" whom his contempoary nobles thought best equipped to replace an insane, murderous king.
 
Louis XXIV said:
No, only one leader for PTW.

Hmmm. I recall Sejong being a Korean leader in one of Civ games. Maybe my memory fails? I've only played Call to Power (and didn't like it frankly), prior to Civ IV.
 
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