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War after the fall patch

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Cromagnus, Oct 25, 2013.

  1. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    I had a game where I was at war with Rome, took a city adjacent to Venice, sold it to Venice for ~40gpt, who immediately liberated it to Rome, who I was still at war with, lather, rinse, repeat three or four times before Venice had no more income.
     
  2. Polisurgist

    Polisurgist King

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    Yeah, I'm an Emperor player when I'm trying something new or just screwing around, and an Immortal player when I want something that's actually challenging. I have about zero interest in Deity, since that seems like a level where if you don't play unerringly to a certain formula, you're lost.
     
  3. Alziel

    Alziel Warlord

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    As an Emperor player I've never had any issues with early or earlyish warfare with BNW, with or without the patch. In fact my first ever victory with BNW was a Domination Victory with Assyria. I started warring as soon as I got my Siege Towers (which I beelined for) and pretty much never stopped warring for the rest of the game. I had no issues at all apart from happiness and diplomatic relations (the former of which was soon resolved and the latter of which I didn't care about).

    That game remains my highest scoring game ever.

    I've had similar success with the Zulus and have just started out on a conquering spree with the Danes as soon as I got my Berserkers (going very well - and this is post-patch).

    I'd love to know what it is I'm doing differently to others but I never really analyzed it. Maybe I'm at too low a level (I have no wish to play at Immortal or Deity although I have won at both levels)? Maybe I'm just lucky? Or maybe I just play differently to other people.
     
  4. HerrDoktor

    HerrDoktor Mad Scientist

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    Also, I think people can't handle the whole world at war with them at the same time, no maritime trade routes, no selling surplus luxuries and such. I certainly can't.
     
  5. Polisurgist

    Polisurgist King

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    I can only surmise that I have a different version of the game from you.
     
  6. a1nosweat

    a1nosweat Warlord

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    Is this a buff for Venice?

    Would the AI actually avoid attacking Venice because of the higher warmonger penalty for doing so? Even in single player?
     
  7. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    Would you all recommend using a mod which COMPLETELY DISABLES WARMONGERING PENALTY, or is it still useful for balance?

    To be honest I'm not sure if all this warmonger penalty even works for AI vs AI civs. I would love to see from inside the entire AI - AI diplomatic relations to examine whether warmnogering balances game or not.

    Certainly it is extremely annoying for human player, and the only thing which stops me from using DISABLE WARMONGER PENALTY mod is "what if some civ become a warmonger and nobody will have any problems with it?"
     
  8. Plumfairy

    Plumfairy Prince

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    Quick disclaimer: I play on Immortal, so YMMV.

    I don't think your ease is because you're at "too low a level". Rather, I'm guessing that you carefully watch your empire and make sure that you're running a financial surplus... and if you're not, you stop what you're doing and prioritize trade routes with city states and/or building financial buildings.

    For many players, myself included, we learned before BNW that it's usually best to overextend yourself financially; your finances will catch up, so prioritize other things in order to get the edge militarily or scientifically. I mean, eventually you had to get your finances in order, but it was rarely difficult to find someone to trade a resource with, and gold was more plentiful on the map itself, which meant that you didn't need other empires in order to make money.

    Playing an early game warmonger in BNW means becoming financially self-sufficient w/out all that gold from river tiles, and so you end up having to play more conservatively. It's definitely doable, as you well know. But I had to learn a completely different (and much more conservative) style of play in order to pull it off.
     
  9. Polisurgist

    Polisurgist King

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    Or it means ignoring the fact that your income is in the negative because you know you'll make it up in pillage and plunder. I played a game as the Huns with my income in the red until the early Renaissance and it worked great.
     
  10. TLHeart

    TLHeart King

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    my last game with the shoshone, at war almost the entire game, I had a negative per turn income the entire game... but my total gold grew, due to pillage, gold from kills, gold from cities...
     
  11. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Yeah, it works. Difference is, they are reluctant to go after one another because of military parity. You can see that by selecting Genghis Khan as one of AI's. He'll probably conquer few CS very quickly, and that will cause other AI to denounce/DoW him. I am not sure if diplomatic penalties are weighed equally for player and AI though.

    I never tryed infoaddict, but isn't this mod showing the info you're looking for?
     
  12. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Moriarte: I can win on the new Deity. I just find it exceedingly unbalanced if I attempt to do so via early war. It's so much more *supported by the game mechanics* to build infrastructure and turtle.

    FYI, in my most recent game, I got a Major Warmonger penalty for taking the first and only city I had ever taken. My "victim" had 4 (edit: Actually 5, I forgot to count the capital) cities. His total population was almost twice mine. His score was more than twice mine. He had forward settled into all available expo spots, leaving me no choice. I checked the tooltip before capture. Major, yep.

    This actually encourages keeping someone in war for ages, because if I had DoW'd thirty turns earlier, my warmonger hate for DoWing probably would have been gone, and reduced the capture penalty to Minor. Maybe. Either way, 5 civs denounced me for taking one measly city on turn 80. The 6th didn't because I had paid him to DoW my target. I tried to do other diplomatic tricks but no one was interested.

    This isn't about challenge. It's just not well-balanced. FYI, I was playing around with the XML before the patch, not because of the patch, and not because of difficulty, but because I don't like the *way* Deity is difficult. I think it's stupid that the AI starts with free techs. It makes certain wonders unachievable for *no good reason*. You could instead increase their tech rate, making the mid and end-game more challenging, and still make it so that the player has to beeline and chop to have a chance at the GL. But it would be a *chance*, instead of *no chance*. Not that I ever would, because that would leave you with no units and a guaranteed jealousy DoW, but it should be a *choice*.

    It's stupid they start with free workers. The player can steal them early and make tile improvements before he could even build a worker.

    It's stupid they start with a free settler. The second city forward-settling (and free techs) of the AI allow 4 beaker trade routes from the beginning, allowing the player to tech *significantly faster on Deity than they can on any other difficulty level*. It makes much more sense to give them a production discount and a tech discount, and tweak it by era so that they have a large boost up front to account for a player Attila getting a godly start and charging in with upgraded rams on t20. I'm fine with the starting military though. This makes it hard for the player to completely wipe them out before they get going. And if they don't have military units they build unprotected workers... :p

    But I digress. :p
     
  13. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Never doubted you.

    Yeah, the way it is since BNW came out.

    It's a top priority wonder for many AI's. If you cheapen the science they will still beeline straight to it and build it before you with cheap hammers you gave them.

    If AI actually builds those workers (by t.10) instead of getting them for free will there be anything to stop "a player" from stealing one?

    Alright, you gave deity AI production/science discounts and remove free stuff. You still get super caravans at some point. As a result, you tech faster on deity than on any other level. Why is this a problem anyway?
     
  14. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Well, all I can say is, Deity doesn't feel like a harder difficulty level. It feels like a different game, and not at all like playing against skilled opponents in multiplayer. Without a complete AI overhaul, I don't see a lot of ways to avoid it. But I do think some things can be resolved easier.

    Without that second city, it delays the AI getting an expo out by at least 10-15 turns in my experience. And without the free workers, it delays getting a caravan out even further. So, you won't start getting tech from AI caravans until 25 turns later than you do now. That makes libraries relevant again early. Remember, on any difficulty but Deity, you don't get significant science from caravans.'

    The free workers are harder to get. You can't get them on t6. They have to build them. And they have to build a settler. If they don't build the settler immediately because they're building workers, the first expo doesn't come until more like t25. So right off the bat there are more barbarians to deal with, and you have more trouble getting that worker *all the way home* from a farther away capital. And without a second city, those workers are well-defended by the extra units. Without the free scout, they have to build one, another delay, and that prevents them from getting as lucky on faith ruins and faith CS. Making religion more of a possibility on Deity. Or at least a pantheon.

    And even with a significant tech boost, the AI can't get Writing done by t2. GL sometimes goes on t25, because sometimes an AI gets Writing from a ruin on t2. Even if the AI had 75% tech costs (I think it defaults to 85% cost), without the second city, if they had to tech Pottery first, it would be t7 before they could get start teching Writing, and the odds of getting a second ruin on exactly t7 are slim, so really we're talking about adding at least 5 turns to the average GL time. Which puts it in the realm of possible. Although still a bad idea. ;-)

    Why is it worth tweaking Deity? I dunno, because for me the ideal game of civ is against a skilled human who happens to be very accomodating to my schedule and takes really fast turns. ;-)

    Anything I can do to make it feel more like competing against a really efficient player I want to experiment with. So far, I like it. It feels harder than Immortal, but in a more balanced way:

    The reduced early caravan TR beakers makes it harder to keep up. The difference is you don't start out behind, so you can actually get some use out of early UUs and early conquest. However, with the new warmonger penalty for capturing a civs only city, it's pretty bad if you do manage to do it. :p

    Early game Deity is like 2x harder than Immortal by default in the ancient era. My version of Deity is about 50% harder than Immortal in the ancient era. But the boosted tech rate creates tech runaways early. The AI enters the classical era a tad slower, but enters medieval about the same time, and enters the renaissance a bit earlier. (I'm seeing sub-t100 Renaissance in my games with that tweak)

    The bigger difference is that the AI enters the industrial era noticeably earlier than you. So the existing science turtle strategy to get into the Industrial first doesn't work. You will struggle to enter the industrial at the same time. And entering the Modern era way earlier is even harder. Again, you're entering the Modern era about the same time as the AI even with tons of beakers. Only a hyper-focused science build will get you into the Atomic Era first with my tweaks. So, this makes it much more possible to lose a Space Race. It requires fast finish times again, something that was lost in BNW.

    It's a work in progress, but I like it. I won't call it Deity if you prefer. I'll call it "Immortal++". :p
     
  15. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    I personally would prefer if the AI played exactly like the humans. Skill levels would be differentiated by which strategies the AI use (e.g., the AI on deity may actually DOW to steal the human's workers, whereas on lower skill levels it wouldn't), and also % bonus or flat bonus to generation of :hammers:, :gold:, or :c5science:.
     
  16. Dralix

    Dralix Killer of threads

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    Until and unless computers become capable of rational thought, that's a pipe dream.
     
  17. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I've been hoping for a version of this for a long time. Overall balance is, duh, the hardest part. Your present approach may get you a SV dynamic with which you're very happy. The slowing down of hard-building SS parts also really helps. But does it require so much focus on bpt that other VC become even harder to get? That might be okay - just drop a level, right? - but I suggest testing it out anyway. If the finished prototype works, consider scaling along Firaxis' existing scale to create versions for the other levels. Why limit it to Deity* after doing all that hard work?
     
  18. Maxym

    Maxym King

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    Yes that's long way off, but Devs can improve it a bit. Of course improvements can become detriments in hands of skilled players. I think we forget how vastly improved tactical and strategic AI is from the vanilla days of trickling units into meat grinders.

    Is it something in the new patch or did I just nit nitce before:

    I had AI avoiding an attack on a fortified high defense unit, trying to get troops around it instead. Rifles walking around my lone infantry while my soft but uberpromoted longbows huddled behind it. The infantry had three open ground promos, and was in open ground. I was expecting it to get pounded from three or four sides, but survive. Instead the tried sneaking around to get to my bows. Needless to say it did not work well for them ;)
     
  19. Silvtown

    Silvtown Chieftain

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    I agree that the early UUs are getting the shaft if early warfare is so difficult. Is there anyone who can prove that wrong?
     
  20. Ninakoru

    Ninakoru A deity on Emperor

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    I've done a simple mod that eliminate free techs, extra workers, settler and warriors in all levels. Only scout is left if difficulty level provides it, because AI scout so badly is not a great concern. It works perfectly with the Fall patch:

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=180420195

    To my surprise it doesn't lower difficulty as much as I initially though, Immortal still feels more like original Immortal than Emperor, production/happiness/maintenance bonuses weight much more than initial army and techs.

    The reasons are much the same that Cromagnus stated:

    - I want the option of trying to build any ancient/classical wonder I decide is key for my strategy.
    - I want the option of not playing science catch-up in any stage of the game, being able to go deeper into non-science patchs early if I want to.

    BTW, an easy way to adjust difficulty with all this advanced start lost goodies is using the PerEraModifier, that affect every single reduction the AI has.
     

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