War breaks out (again) in the DR Congo

[North King]

There are many in India too. It's not the groups themselves that matter it is the distrust between them.

India was filled with much more stable native governments for a much longer time. The situations are incomparable.

 

[amadeus]

So, tell me how bad Mobutu was again?

 

[Merkinball]

I don't understand why the African tribes can't work with each other. - Ansar

Tell me what you think of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide

 

[Virote_Considon]

So, tell me how bad Mobutu was again?

Well, from what I've learnt of him, he managed to keep the peace quite well during his rule.

 

[The Yankee]

I really had high hopes after the last election. Guess its tough being an african optimist!

In that region, with a conflict brewing about a lake on the Congolese-Ugandan border that has oil, plus perhaps some simmering tensions between Congo, Congolese rebels, Ugandans, Ugandan rebels, plus throwing Rwanda and others that fought in the "African World War" into the mix and this cycle has the potential to last for a very, very long time.

Let the fighters kill each other all they want, but the civilians who are raped, tortured, killed, pressed into fighting are the ones that suffer.

 

[Che Guava]

Ooops, guess the rebels didn't count on gunships....

Air raid 'kills 50 Congo rebels'

The Democratic Republic of Congo has used a helicopter gunship for the first time in the fighting against rebels in the east of the country.

A Congolese general told the BBC that the bodies of 50 rebel fighters had been found but this has not been independently confirmed.

The clashes are continuing in two parts of North Kivu province, including in a park inhabited by mountain gorillas.

Some 170,000 people have fled the area this year, says the UN refugee agency.

The air strike by the Mi-24 gunship took place some 80km west of the regional capital, Goma, Colonel Delphin Kahimbi told the BBC.

"There was heavy fighting near Karuba. We deployed an attack helicopter to back our ground troops," he told the AFP news agency.

A Congolese general also said there was fighting near Sake, about 40km west of Goma, where fighting broke out last week.

The army says that 180 rebel fighters have now been killed in recent days.

full article

 

[amadeus]

History repeats itself!

Read some stories about the mercenaries that served in the Congo... things like this happened all the time, and this was in a time when the Congo didn't have any helicopters, strafing was used from old piston-engine fighters.

 

[Donny]

The whole country has been going downhill since it got it's independence from Belgium. Only one conclusion seems logical - they can't be their own masters.

For a long time in it's existence as a colony, Congo was the private(!) property of the king of Belgium. Things happened there that were comparable to Nazi atrocities in WWII, but almost nobody from the western world cared. Well, they only did if it was in their political interest to care. Really terrible things are going on over there, but I wouldn't consider it "downhill" if you see where they came from.

Of course they can be their own masters, the country was just totally f*cked up in almost every way when they got their independence. But I have to give it to you that it still is today.

 

[Che Guava]

Maybe a break....!

Truce to end fighting in DR Congo

The army and rebels in the Democratic Republic of Congo have agreed a ceasefire in the town at the heart of recent fighting, the UN says.

The clashes around the eastern town of Sake had raised fears of a return to conflict in DR Congo, emerging from a five-year war.

UN peacekeepers say they are to take control of the town, which lies on the road to the North Kivu capital, Goma.

Some 200,000 people have fled fighting in the region this year, the UN says.

"[Rebel General Laurent] Nkunda's men, who tried to take Sake this morning, have agreed to withdraw into the hills," said Sylvie Van Den Wildenberg, UN spokeswoman in North Kivu.

Civilians and soldiers report that the town was heavily shelled in the early hours of Thursday by the rebels.

The BBC's Arnaud Zajtman in Sake says there is a continuous stream of people leaving the town, silently walking towards Goma, 30km away, with goods on their heads and young children in their arms.

Thousands have fled, carrying all their belongings with them - mattresses, pots and shovels.

full article

Goooooo ceasefire!

 

[Virote_Considon]

£5 says they'll be at it again within the next two years.

 

[Winner]

I guess that's one way to look at it. Things were a lot quieter under the Belgians, and great advances were made in infrastructure and medicine, but I don't think there are too many (black) congolese who look back fondly on that time either.

Sure they don't, because its remind them of their own failure. Look, there are countries which had been colonized and after they've been granted independence, they developed. Unfortunately Africa seems to be very different. Colonial countries have in fact brought a 19th century civilization to a continent mosty stuck in Iron Age (with the rest living in Stone Age conditions). For 100 years, they've been trying to develop it, but after they suffered WW2, they couldn't hold them. Nationalist groups led by power-hungry individuals, who knew Africa isn't ready for independence, demanded it in order to get their own country to rule. And they succeeded.

Europe shouldn't have left the colonies. If it stayed, things would be better for Africans.

Why western troops exactly? If african nations are going to start to stand up and look after themselves, the AU should be the one brokering and keeping peace deals.

Because AU troops are Africans. Ask any Western UN soldier what he thinks about African soldiers. Unreliable, poortly trained, no morale. Yes, I am generalizing, but it's not far from the truth. Plus many of them belong to tribes which are at odds with people they should protect, which means they often side with their enemies. Westerners are truly impartial, because they're usually unable to understand the differences between tribes - they all look the same to them. Western troops are a real force, unlike the African soldiers.

EU has sent its troops to Congo two times, because the UN failed to do the job.

If it was up to me, I'd send 10,000 of them, depose the government in Congo and estabilish a protectorate as a first step to full stabilization of the country. Democracy has no place in country torn by tribal warfare.

 

[Winner]

That's an illogical conclusion, actually, blaming the colonized for the state of the colony. One would probably have more success blaming the colonizer. Anyway, I think if you bundle a few hundred ethnic groups together in a third world country, you're not going to get a good result any which way.

It's perfectly logical, you see

Belgium in charge - peace, progress, human rights, education, healthcare, rising living standard

Congolese in charge - wars, genocide, famine, falling living standard.

Yeah, I blame the colonized.

 

[Winner]

No, this is what happens when you conquer, divide, and then completely abandon your colonies.

Europe didn't abandon them, they have abandoned Europe and this is what they achieved.

France may have left their colonies in complete economic ruin, but Belguim was easily the most notorious, apathetic country when it came to dividing, conquering, and abandoning.

I doubt you're even able to name the French colonies without Wikipedia, so please, don't pretend you know anything about them. You picked France only because it is the favourite target for the US nationalists. Actually, there were coutnries which did much worse job than France.

I know you don't like this idea Winner, because to you, Europe is absolutely infallible, but a good portion of the bloodshed that has taken place in the Congo, Ugana, and Rwanda in particular is on EUROPE'S hands.

Under European rule, Africa was better off, especially after WW1. That's a fact, Europeans kept peace, invested their money there, developed their colonies. Africans didn't like that, so they revolted and got their independence. This is what they've done with it.

So if you're looking for someone to blame, blame them.

 

[Winner]

Ooops, guess the rebels didn't count on gunships....

full article

Yeah, that's the usual strategy - bomb the rebel villages. Rebels survive in jungle, civilians die.

Welcome to Africa.

 

[Winner]

For a long time in it's existence as a colony, Congo was the private(!) property of the king of Belgium. Things happened there that were comparable to Nazi atrocities in WWII, but almost nobody from the western world cared. Well, they only did if it was in their political interest to care. Really terrible things are going on over there, but I wouldn't consider it "downhill" if you see where they came from.

And after this brief period. Belgian government took charge and turned Congo into an exemplary colony. They invested a lot of money there to undo the damage. As the statistical data show, the living standard of an average Congolese was higher back then than it is now.

So your "blame the evil imperialists" strategy failed, again.

Of course they can be their own masters, the country was just totally f*cked up in almost every way when they got their independence. But I have to give it to you that it still is today.

As I said, their country wasn't f*cked up, it was actually on a good good way to prosperity and democracy - until Africans took charge and totally screwed everything what Belgians achieved in the last decades.

 

[frob2900]

Belgium in charge - peace, progress, human rights, education, healthcare, rising living standard

WHAT? Are you serious?

You cant be serious?

 

[Winner]

WHAT? Are you serious?

You cant be serious?

No matter how many idiotic smilies you include, I am serious. I am talking about the period before Congo got independence.

 

[frob2900]

No matter how many idiotic smilies you include, I am serious. I am talking about the period before Congo got independence.

Sorry, I can't help myself

"Rising living standard"??

Yeah, I can bet it rose between 1908 and independence. It's not particularly hard to get a rising living standard with those initial conditions!

 

[Verbose]

No, this is what happens when you conquer, divide, and then completely abandon your colonies. France may have left their colonies in complete economic ruin, but Belguim was easily the most notorious, apathetic country when it came to dividing, conquering, and abandoning.

I know you don't like this idea Winner, because to you, Europe is absolutely infallible, but a good portion of the bloodshed that has taken place in the Congo, Ugana, and Rwanda in particular is on EUROPE'S hands.

Interestingly things like the colonisation of Africa is precisely why Europe belatedly seems to have developed a consciouness (misplaced as it can be at times).

Over this is recurrently gets slagged off by another group of Americans, demanding Europe to get over things like this, get its balls back, and go beat up small nations of dark-skinned people again. (Which the French still do on occasion, but not the people in need of beating up as per a US view.)

 

[Winner]

Sorry, I can't help myself

"Rising living standard"??

Yeah, I can bet it rose between 1908 and independence. It's not particularly hard to get a rising living standard with those initial conditions!

Again, smilies won't make your posts right

Initial conditions, I mean true initial conditions, before Europeans arrived, were equally bad. Instead of Europeans, it were African kings, chiefs and warlords who terrorized the local population. Europeans hardly destroyed anything, because there wasn't anything to destroy. After 1908, they've started to develop the country and they'd perhaps succeeded, if they had enough time. Another 100 years or so.