War by proxy?

[SnowlyWhite]

Lately, I stopped paying for peace declarations in most of the cases; since the ai is so predictable in moving his sod, I found it cheaper to just gift the losing side units(in the city where the attack will take place, and pre promoted because you don't want the ai to promote them) and let the other guy just waste his sod. Then usually they just make peace without you paying any techs.

I noticed you can actually also get cities back for your desired civ.; usually. Most of the time, if you park some cr tanks right near the city which was newly captured(and from where the ai moved his sod to conquer the next city) and which has culture from your guy all around it(so you can actually do the gifting), the ai actually attacks and get back their city(ok, usually, doesn't work all the time... once justinian managed to think my cr tanks gift were for something else then taking back a constantinopole defended by 3 lousy infantries, but then life ain't perfect...).

what's your folks experience?

p.s. - beside not paying, usually the losing civ. can't sign peace anyway, so you'd have to pay to the winning civ. which is already your rival probably.

 

[ViaArete]

Can you clarify?

Do you mean (for example) Spain and Rome are at war, and you want them to stop fighting. Spain is losing, so you gift Spain units. You then ask Rome/Spain to declare peace with Spain/Rome.

Is that right?

 

[SnowlyWhite]

I gift spain units enough so rome wastes their sod on the next attack; usually they'll sign peace then without you asking anything. Spain because it's losing anyway and rome because now they think they can't win anymore

 

[Stewie0416]

Can you be a bit more specific, like how many units should i gift? If you give 2 many then you end up a sitting duck, too litte and spain gets whooped. Thxs

 

[SnowlyWhite]

now... that's obviously hard to say...

how it started... 4 games ago(till then I was always bribing with techs for peace, that's why I've posted, since I thought, "hey, if I did all that time, maybe others didn't see the light either")

conquered my continent, was going to space since I cba to do naval, kubbie kept giving a beating to justinian; now, I would've won anyway, even with him vassalizing justinian. But I never liked kubie; he always gets on my nerves since he spoiled me once of a cultural victory some half an year ago

1st 3 wars occured before we met; 4th war(I had zeppelins in both their lands to scout), I pay for peace; but you know kubbie, he was wheoohrn the next turn after I payed him... in this rythm my uber tech advantage would've run dry no matter what. So, I embarked 8 mgs and put them where I knew he'll struck. Naturally, after 10 turns, kubbie redeclares, I gift them to justinian, they repel the attack, kubbie losses all his sod, they make peace in the next 10 turns. 6th war(he got tanks, I had 4 mgs, 4 infantries and 8 tanks parked, all but 4 tanks in the city where he attacks, same thing, only that the last 4 tanks I put them 1 tile away from a city which justinian lost earlier and give them cr3; double miracle - the city under attack stands(that was expected) and justinian actually understands what I'm trying to tell him and uses those 4 cr3 tanks to take his city back(woot! ). The 7th war, I just gifted him 12 modern armors(the rest were still at tanks) and hoped for the best; 4 were again with cr3 and parked near constantinopole(defended by the std. 4 units garnisson - some 3 infantry and 1 cavalry), but this time justinian doesn't get the point,so I see those 4 cr mas running around... ok, but still he lasted and they made peace. The 7th war(yeah, those mongols were always hard headed) justinian vassalizes since I couldn't care less(ship was due to arrive next turns).

2 games ago, boudica vs ghandi(obviously ghandi wasn't the attacker... ). 1st war(he had a great hill city, I was playing the cow so protective actually helped for once), gave ghandi 6 archers and hoped for the best. It worked, they later peaced without my paying a pennie. 2nd war, gave him 6 lbows(always had 2 sentry chariots around their lands, so I could see when boudica was getting ready for a new war), boudica wasted her classical/medieval assorted stack and again they made peace without me paying. 3rd war... well, I was already on the path of getting domi, so my rifles started marching in boudica's lands... they made peace as I was handing boudica a good beating.

This game, 2 galleons of rifles(so 6) sit in freddie's border city as peter is wheoohrn again. But ok, this game the ais were more or less balanced in all the time so I didn't have to do much by myself.

basically, look at the attacking sod(you'll see it turns ahead with your scout, since the ai ain't subtle and parks it in the city from where they want to launch the attack) and think what you'd like to have yourself as defence against what you see lined up there.

p.s. - 12 mas, 8 mgs... "it's cheaper to just bribe for peace"; ok, look at the cost of refrigeration(which at that time was the cheapest coin for bribe, or even stopping your economy 2-3 turns to pay him 4-5k cash) and at the cost of the units. Leaving aside, again, that you pay it to your main contender.

 

[Stewie0416]

seems like a nice idea, i might try it sometime, but what if the country you gave those units 2 suddenly does a DoW on you? What i'm trying to say is what if Monty is getting beat by Mao. Should i really risk letting Monty get units or should i just let him die? (PS: i am a noob so thats y im asking so many questions)

 

[CLST]

2 games ago, boudica vs ghandi(obviously ghandi wasn't the attacker... ). 1st war(he had a great hill city, I was playing the cow so protective actually helped for once), gave ghandi 6 archers and hoped for the best. It worked, they later peaced without my paying a pennie.

You paid 6 archers by your logic. I dunno why you're such a peace loving hippie, if I know who's losing a war I'm taking some land and wiping him out!

 

[CmdrGoob]

Never done it, sounds like it's great for a laugh, though. Do you get a diplomatic hit for gifting units to someone's enemy?

 

[Iranon]

I tend to do the reverse of this: If I am on good terms with an all-out warmonger who is falling behind, I tend to give them a few up-to-date units so their wars are successful.

My aim isn't to have peace, but to get as many opponents caught up in a costly stalemate as possible.

 

[Perugia]

When gifting units, remember the AI will always upgrade the units if it has spare gold so you can save quite some hammers this way and get rid of any obsolete stuff.

So if in your example of gifting longbows to Gandi in the second Boudican war you may have been able to gift 6 archers instead of 6 longbows. I do this all the time and always give away my obsolete stuff to my allies or weak civs rather than disbanding it.

Given the choice, I'll even build archers instead of longbows when I intend to gift them away. I can do this as long as I am unable to build Crossbowmen which can be contrived by tech or resource as crossbows need Machinery and Iron.

 

[azzaman333]

I tend to do the reverse of this: If I am on good terms with an all-out warmonger who is falling behind, I tend to give them a few up-to-date units so their wars are successful.

My aim isn't to have peace, but to get as many opponents caught up in a costly stalemate as possible.

Exactly. The more the AI's war, the less money you need to spend on staying ahead with tech, the more you can focus on killing the AIs yourself.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

You paid 6 archers by your logic. I dunno why you're such a peace loving hippie, if I know who's losing a war I'm taking some land and wiping him out!

I hate peace... but: in my 1st example... I hate naval invasions even more then peace And in the 2nd: well, I was racing for lib., so the army wasn't somethin' to write home about, ghandi's turf was crappy(but boudica was already too big, so I couldn't afford letting her get more land) and most important, ghandi didn't build his shrine yet. And wasn't like I'd get a prophet anytime soon, so I kinda needed him to build his stupid shrine.

Never done it, sounds like it's great for a laugh, though. Do you get a diplomatic hit for gifting units to someone's enemy?

in theory, "traded with worst enemies"; in reality, no, since the values are too small to actually get any demerits.

seems like a nice idea, i might try it sometime, but what if the country you gave those units 2 suddenly does a DoW on you? What i'm trying to say is what if Monty is getting beat by Mao. Should i really risk letting Monty get units or should i just let him die?

1st, you should strive to gift them defensive units mostly(those cg promoted longbows won't exactly do something on offence), 2nd I never gifted a major % of the army. My idea was to try and more like "put the units in the relevant place"(the ai will still keep 3-4 units in cities that aren't threatened, while defending the city currently under siege with crap - so, while gifting ghandi 6 lbows helped him defeat boudica's sod, his power graph barely moved a notch), and not to actually build someone an army.

So if in your example of gifting longbows to Gandi in the second Boudican war you may have been able to gift 6 archers instead of 6 longbows. I do this all the time and always give away my obsolete stuff to my allies or weak civs rather than disbanding it.

that's what I do too in peace times; however, in war - if you gift them a couple of turns before the other ai's sod comes knocking(so your guy can raise some cash for upgrade), the ai will have this stupid idea of starting to move the gifted units behind the front line(which will piss you off royally since you just achieved nothing). If you gift them just 1 turn before the assault, probably they won't have cash for upgrade. It's not warlords anymore, upgrade now costs them quite abit(on deity 50% of your cost, on immortal 60%, so still, for 6 archer->lbow it's something)

 

[silverbullet]

Great idea. I should have used it in my last game. I had rifling and was getting ready for war with Churchill who only had longbows. Problem is HC was declaring on him as well. I didn't want him to capitulate to HC (he was very weak), so I bribed HC for peace, giving up my tech lead. I should have instead brought CG2 rifles to the cities that HC was attacking (with curassiers). No techs lost, and I am not giving the rifling technology away by doing it.

Giving techs for peace is still useful when you are ahead in tech and have no army at all, but when your empire is more balanced this is a very nice trick.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

another aspect I've noticed recently it's the price for peace:

the ai will be cocky and ask huge for peace right after they declare; as they start losing units, ww mounts and so on, they'll settle for much less. Didn't check the code for the actual mechanics, but, for instance, shaka after a declaration wanted no more or less then education and some cash. After gifting the other guy some units, shaka losing alot in his 1st assault despite being succesful(didn't have anyway near enough to gift hamu - his opponent - so he'd fail his attack) he settled for music and theo and even gave me some cash.

It's obvious that the price they ask for peace are related to their "feeling" of winning the war; don't know how much it's related to mounting ww and how much to losing troops, but apparently quite alot as the price can drop drastically if they lose many units in the 1st assault.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

one more thing tested: gifted units don't keep their fortification bonus(unpleasant, but to be expected I suppose).

also, tested for the 5th time, it's official, the stupid ai will move the units if you give them too early, even if the mother of all sods is in front of his city, he'll still degarnisson some for... God knows why...

 

[Stewie0416]

I'm gonna try it out in my next game, hope it works

 

[vicawoo]

If you do this too much, beware of the Iran Contra Affair random event

 

[Stewie0416]

UMMM, dont have BtS, only warlords...