[RD] War in Gaza News: Pas de Deux

I'll clarify my comment since it sparked debate; I didn't mean to say that the Iranian regime instructed the Hamas leadership to attack Israel on the 7th of October 2023.

But they surely knew what Hamas planned to orchestrate and supplied them accordingly with the weapons, equipment, training and know-how over at least a two-year period according to intel, to carry out this specific attack.

Better?
We don't really have indication Hamas expected the attack on 7th Oct 2023 to succeed to the extent that it did. It was spectacular... in a number of deeply problematic senses.

Everyone seems to have been surprised – including Hamas itself, and its backers in Iran.

So on that score, no one planned for the actual extent and effect of the attack.
 
Remember when it was called antisemitic to suggest Israel were going to bomb hospitals? And then they did, and have continued to do, and now nobody blinks or even admits it was wrong to criticise those with the foresight to call a spade a spade?
Well, it's still antisemitic – IF the allegation is that Israel is doing it because they are Jews just generally.

Before that it might have been anti-Israeli to suggest it might bomb hospitals – until it actually went and did it. After which it is a matter of record.

It's a conceptual mine-field, and the Netanyahu government pulling the "antisemitism" card at every opportunity messes it up further.

That said, actual antisemitism is not dead and buried either.

What's the spade? That Israel won't shrink from bombing hospitals, or that Jews wont shrink from bombing hospitals? With some people the lines can be terribly blurred.
 
Well, it's still antisemitic – IF the allegation is that Israel is doing it because they are Jews just generally.
What the hell is this? Nobody thinks Jews would bomb hospitals because of their Jewishness lol.

But maybe Zionists would because of their Zionism.
 
Well, it's still antisemitic – IF the allegation is that Israel is doing it because they are Jews just generally.
Point to those allegations in reality and that's worth talking about (however briefly). Otherwise it's a completely made-up nonsense talking point.
Before that it might have been anti-Israeli to suggest it might bomb hospitals – until it actually went and did it.
You do realise this isn't the first military campaign Israel have waged? We do, in fact, have past evidence to support suspicions? It's outside the scope of the thread to go into specifics, but just imagine for a second that people aren't making it all up.
 
Of course Iran "had something to do" with the October 7th operation as it has been funding and arming Hamas for years. There is however a big difference between this (trivially obvious) claim and the claim that October 7th was when "Iran started this war against Israel." Which is the original claim I was addressing.
Of course by a similar standard, the US "has something to do" with Israel's invasion of Gaza and now Lebanon and similarly this trivially obvious observation/claim/admission isn't the same as saying the US caused/started the invasion(s), or that the US is directly responsible for them, even more particularly, stopping them.
 
So we are now 1 year into this war. Recall the times when long armed conflicts were still rare between any meaningful sides? Those are over.


I like the analogy he uses in the end, about such conflicts; the longer they last, more sides join in.
 

Israel marks Oct. 7 anniversary under shadow of escalating war​

REIM, Israel, Oct 7 (Reuters) - Israelis on Monday marked the first anniversary of the devastating Hamas attack that triggered a war which has sparked protest worldwide and risks igniting a far wider conflict in the Middle East.
Ceremonies and protests in Jerusalem and Israel's south began around 06:29 a.m. (0329 GMT), the hour when Hamas-led militants launched rockets into Israel at the start of the Oct. 7 attack last year.
They killed some 1,200 people and took about 250 hostages to Gaza, according to Israeli figures.

Outside Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's home in Jerusalem, around 300 people led by families of hostages holding up photos of their loved ones, observed a minute of silence for the dead as a siren sounded.
"We're still stuck in October 7th, 2023, in one unending day of terror, of fear, of anger, of despair," said Yuval Baron, whose father-in-law Keith Siegel is hostage in Gaza.
"We wanted to start this day together to remind ourselves, our prime minister, the public of Israel that even though it is a day of grief there is still a holy mission to bring back the hostages," said Baron.

In Reim, the site of the music festival where more than 360 people were killed and dozens taken hostage, President Isaac Herzog presided over the memorial ceremony which began with the last track that was played at the party a year ago.
"We will remember always who kidnapped, who murdered, who raped, who slaughtered. At the same time, we have also seen extraordinary fortitude. We have a wonderful people and on this day we strengthen it and call for unity," said Herzog.

Ceremonies were to take place at kibbutz villages and towns near the border throughout the day.

HIGH ALERT​

Security forces were on high alert across the country on Monday, the military and police said, anticipating possible Palestinian attacks planned for the anniversary of Oct. 7, 2023, when the worst bloodletting in the decades-old Israeli-Palestinian conflict began.
Movement in the Israeli-occupied West Bank was further hampered as many checkpoints shut down, residents said,

and some Palestinians with entry permits received notices on their mobile phones saying they will not be allowed into Israel on Monday.
In Gaza, the Israeli military said its aircraft foiled a rocket attack planned by Hamas.
The Hamas attack on Israeli communities around Gaza and Israel's relentless campaign in response have destabilised the Middle East while the scale of the killing and destruction have horrified people worldwide.
Vigils were also held outside Israel and demonstrations were expected against its offensive in the Gaza Strip which has laid wasteto the densely populated coastal enclave, killed almost 42,000 people, according to Palestinian health authorities, and displaced most of the 2.3 million population.
For Israel, the surprise assault by the Palestinian Islamist group was one of the worst security failures for a country that prides itself on a strong, sophisticated military.
The attack led to Israel's single deadliest day, shattered many citizens' sense of security and sent their faith in its leaders to new lows.

FOCUS SHIFTS TO NORTH​

Most of the dead were civilians, including women, children and elderly people, killed in their homes, on the roads and at the site of the open air Nova music festival - as well as soldiers on army bases near the Gaza border.
In Gaza, 101 hostages remain as Israeli forces press on with their mission to end Hamas' rule of the enclave and demolish its military capabilities.
But the focus of the war has increasingly shifted north to Lebanon where Israeli forces have been exchanging fire with Hezbollah since the Iranian-backed group launched a barrage of missiles in support of Hamas on Oct. 8.
What began as limited daily exchanges has escalated into bombardments of Hezbollah's stronghold in Beirut and a ground offensive into border villages meant to stamp out its fighters there and allow tens of thousands of Israelis evacuated from their homes in the country's north to return.
Israel's assault, which has killed over 1,000 people in the past two weeks, has triggered a mass flight from southern Lebanon where more than 1 million people have been displaced.
A series of Israeli assassinations over the past few months which killed Hezbollah and Hamas chiefs and a sophisticated attack on Hezbollah via pagers and radios have restored some sense of security for Israelis.
But they also prompted unprecedented missile attacks from Iran, raising fears of a regional war with a powerful enemy. Israel has yet to respond to the second Iranian barrage on Oct 1, but has vowed a harsh response.
 
You don't even remember (for example) 1992-2002? :shake:
1992-2000 was the Clinton years. FWIW, during that time, the US participated in the Bosnian War and the Kosovo War, as well as the invasion of Haiti. 9/11 (Afghanistan War) started in 2001.
 
1992-2000 was the Clinton years. FWIW, during that time, the US participated in the Bosnian War and the Kosovo War, as well as the invasion of Haiti. 9/11 (Afghanistan War) started in 2001.
The only meaningful side in all of those was the US. It's why I used plural; meaningful sides.
 
The only meaningful side in all of those was the US. It's why I used plural; meaningful sides.
So for frame of reference, do you consider there to be "meaningful sides" in Israel-Gaza? Israel-Lebanon? Russia-Ukraine? Saudi Arabia-Yemen? Azerbaijan-Armenia?
 
I find it hard to make the argument that Somalia in 1993 wasn't a meaningful conflict, I also find it hard to try and make the US the meaningful participant. We just briefly learned that trying to give out food in a conflict will involve shooting people, then probably mostly forgot it.

There was a gentleman's agreement that the big nuclear powers don't directly fight, and that's still on. It's not like my father's generation didn't get shot by AKs. The world just carries on an old, unchanged, tradition.
 
So for frame of reference, do you consider there to be "meaningful sides" in Israel-Gaza? Israel-Lebanon? Russia-Ukraine?
Russia-Ukraine, apart from Ukraine being (technically still) the second largest in landmass country in Europe, is obviously (in addition to a war between Russia and Ukraine) a massive proxy war between US-Russia on european soil (ie not for some backwater like Afganistan). Israel-Gaza is at the very least Israel-Iran, and US features heavily there too, while Iran is allied to Russia/China, so again it's a serious war (though imo for the time being less serious than the other one).

Anyway, my point was that imo such huge, year/years lasting wars, such as Israel's, weren't common in the near past, but now are. I only elaborated because I was asked, and won't go on about this as it's an RD thread focused solely on Israel's current war...
 
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Russia-Ukraine, apart from Ukraine being (technically still) the second largest in landmass country in Europe, is obviously a massive proxy war between US-Russia on european soil (ie not for some backwater like Afganistan). Israel-Gaza is at the very least Israel-Iran, and US features heavily there too, while Iran is allied to Russia/China, so again it's a serious war (though imo for the time being less serious than the other one).
So it seems from this that you are using the phrase "meaningful side" as a euphemism for "the US".

So under your framing/view there can't really be a conflict between "meaninful side(s)" plural, because the only side that is "meaningful" in your view is the US. If the US isn't involved, it can't be a conflict involving "meaningful sides" in your view... as in the Gaza invasion is only "meaningful sides" because the US is involved.

So your observation about there not being any meaningful sides conflicts is essentially meaningless. Do you see that?
 
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I consider Iran and Israel regional powers. The most recent I can think of to major powers clashing is China and the US directly fighting in the Korean War.
 
I consider Iran and Israel regional powers. The most recent I can think of to major powers clashing is China and the US directly fighting in the Korean War.

That was the last direct confrontation of great powers.
 
Moderator Action: And back to the thread topic news please.
 
Tele-Mossad wants to pinpoint your location...for presenting communication packages and devices...of course!

Hamas will rise 'like a phoenix' from the ashes, leader-in-exile says​

Oct 7 (Reuters) - Hamas leader-in-exile Khaled Meshaal said the Palestinian group would rise "like a phoenix" from the ashes despite heavy losses during a year of war with Israel, and that it continues to recruit fighters and manufacture weapons.
One year after the Hamas attack that triggered the war, Meshaal framed the conflict with Israel as part of a broader narrative spanning 76 years, dating back to what Palestinians call the "Nakba" or "catastrophe," when many were displaced during the 1948 war that accompanied the creation of Israel.

"Palestinian history is made of cycles," Meshaal, 68, a senior Hamas figure under overall leader Yahya Sinwar, told Reuters in an interview.
"We go through phases where we lose martyrs (victims) and we lose part of our military capabilities, but then the Palestinian spirit rises again, like the phoenix, thanks to God."
Meshaal, who survived an Israeli assassination attempt in 1997 after he was injected with poison and was overall Hamas leader from 1996-2017, said the Islamist militant group was still able to mount ambushes against Israeli troops.

"We lost part of our ammunition and weapons, but Hamas is still recruiting young men and continues to manufacture a significant portion of its ammunition and weapons," said Meshaal, without providing details.
Meshaal remains influential in Hamas because he has played a crucial role in its leadership for almost three decades, and is widely seen now as its diplomatic face. He is one of six Hamas leaders indicted by the U.S. Justice Department on terrorism charges over the Oct. 7 attack on Israel that triggered the war.

His comments appear intended as a signal that the group will fight on whatever its losses, Middle East analysts said.
"Overall I would say (Hamas is) alive and kicking still and ... will probably come back at some point in Gaza," said Joost R. Hiltermann, Middle East and North Africa Program Director of the International Crisis Group.
He said Israel had not spelled out a plan for Gaza when the war ends, and this could allow Hamas to re-establish itself although perhaps not with such strength or in the same form.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office declined comment on Meshaal's remarks.

'TICKING TIME BOMB'​

Israel began its offensive against Hamas after about 1,200 people were killed and around 250 taken hostage in the Hamas attack on Oct. 7 last year, according to Israeli tallies.
Much of Gaza has been laid to waste and about 42,000 Palestinians have been killed in the offensive, according to Palestinian health officials.

Israel says Hamas no longer exists as an organised military structure and has been reduced to guerrilla tactics. At least a third of the Palestinian fatalities in Gaza, around 17,000 people, are Hamas fighters, according to Israeli officials. About 350 Israeli soldiers have been killed in combat in Gaza.
Meshaal said he saw no prospects for peace while Netanyahu's government is in power. Israel blames Hamas, whose founding charter calls for Israel's destruction, for the failure to secure peace.
"As long as the (Israeli) occupation exists, the region remains a ticking time bomb," Meshaal said.
 
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