[RD] War in Gaza News: Pas de Deux

[Ajidica]

I'm just a little flustered (and have been) that Egypt does nothing to help neighboring Palestinians when they could. They claim taking them in would "ruin" whatever chances Palestinians have for a free state, but what about those who at the moment do not want that and just want out...? Why play politics with them...?

From the Egyptian government's point of view, why should they be complicit in the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in Gaza? Isn't in incumbent on Israel - and America as its primary backer - to put a stop to it? It isn't Egyptian bombs and tanks laying siege to hospitals and shelling UNRWA vaccine clinics.

EDIT: In the 90s when Bosnian cities were under siege by Serb forces, attempts by the UN to evacuate Bosnians to other cities or outside of Yugoslavia were extremely controversial on the grounds the UN would essentially be helping the Serbs commit ethnic cleansing. Bullets or trucks, no more Bosnians. Instead of the UN protecting the Bosnians from ethnic cleansing, they were in a sense asking the Bosnians to please ethnically cleanse themselves. Surely you can see the parallels to Gaza?

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Going that far back why not 7th century? Arabs aren't exactly innocent in the Imperialism game.

What happened in the 7th century?

 

[Senethro]

Going that far back why not 7th century? Arabs aren't exactly innocent in the Imperialism game.

This is one of the ways people say things that are kinda factual but they mean something they're not openly saying by it.

 

[Kyriakos]

What happened in the 7th century?

End of the Byzantine-Sassanid massive war and consequent conquest of part of the Byz Empire and all of the Sassanid one by arabs.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Well this just happened - not in the 7th century

Palestinian woman killed by IDF fire while picking olives in West Bank

***

www.haaretz.com

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

End of the Byzantine-Sassanid massive war and consequent conquest of part of the Byz Empire and all of the Sassanid one by arabs.

Of that I am aware, but I am waiting to hear what bearing that has to do with anything in this thread

 

[Kyriakos]

Of that I am aware, but I am waiting to hear what bearing that has to do with anything in this thread

I agree, none generally.

 

[Joij21]

What happened in the 7th century?

This is one of the ways people say things that are kinda factual but they mean something they're not openly saying by it.

The Arab conquests of the Middle East and North Africa. Before that Arabs only lived in the Arabian peninsula, hence their name "Arab" meaning from Arabia.

 

[Ajidica]

The Arab conquests of the Middle East and North Africa. Before that Arabs only lived in the Arabian peninsula, hence their name "Arab" meaning from Arabia.

Why are we talking about the Arab conquests of the Middle Ages instead of the Gothic, Saxon, Scottish, Magyar, or Turkoman conquests?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Moderator Action: Intermission over; back to current events please.

 

[Voidwalkin]

From the Egyptian government's point of view, why should they be complicit in the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in Gaza?

Is that really the reasoning behind Egypt's present policy on their Gaza border? I know they've kept their Gaza border shut, but I don't know exactly what they've said as to why they maintain that policy.

I don't agree with Egypt's stance, if that is indeed their reasoning. Particularly if Israel implements the worst imaginings of the "General's Plan", which I doubt they will. If they do, though? "We care so deeply about the right of Palestinians to that land, that we'll keep the border closed, as they starve, en masse!" is not a good argument.

 

[Zardnaar]

Is that really the reasoning behind Egypt's present policy on their Gaza border? I know they've kept their Gaza border shut, but I don't know exactly what they've said as to why they maintain that policy.

I don't agree with Egypt's stance, if that is indeed their reasoning. Particularly if Israel implements the worst imaginings of the "General's Plan", which I doubt they will. If they do, though? "We care so deeply about the right of Palestinians to that land, that we'll keep the border closed, as they starve, en masse!" is not a good argument.

With Palestinian refugees you also get Palestinian militants.

They've destabilized any country they set up in up to and including political assassinations.

Hence why surrounding nations don't want them.

Ideally Gaza would probably go to Egypt, West bank to Jordan. No one wants it though.

 

[Senethro]

The Arab conquests of the Middle East and North Africa. Before that Arabs only lived in the Arabian peninsula, hence their name "Arab" meaning from Arabia.

So what did Zardnaar mean by it then? People say things like this to have a meaning relevant to the current conversation. I don't see the connection, so I can't get his meaning.

With Palestinian refugees you also get Palestinian militants.

They've destabilized any country they set up in up to and including political assassinations.

Hence why surrounding nations don't want them.

Ideally Gaza would probably go to Egypt, West bank to Jordan. No one wants it though.

See this? This is a guy preparing to pull up his realpolitik pants up and suggest a reluctant solution he finds distasteful but inevitable.

 

[Gorbles]

Israeli strike on Gaza multi-storey residential building reportedly kills dozens

At least 73 people died in the strike, doctors and officials say; Israeli army disputes casualty numbers and says attack was directed at a Hamas target

www.theguardian.com

Israeli strike on Gaza multi-storey residential building reportedly kills dozens

At least 73 people died in the strike, doctors and officials say; Israeli army disputes casualty numbers and says attack was directed at a Hamas target

 

[Joij21]

So what did Zardnaar mean by it then? People say things like this to have a meaning relevant to the current conversation. I don't see the connection, so I can't get his meaning.

Well to me it sounded like he was trying to make the argument that since Arabs long ago did an imperialism in the past when conquering the previous pagan peoples who lived there before, Israel has the right to do an imperialism now because it's simply imperialists killing more ancient former imperialists. You know two wrongs equal a right kind of thing.

 

[Ajidica]

Is that really the reasoning behind Egypt's present policy on their Gaza border? I know they've kept their Gaza border shut, but I don't know exactly what they've said as to why they maintain that policy.

I don't agree with Egypt's stance, if that is indeed their reasoning. Particularly if Israel implements the worst imaginings of the "General's Plan", which I doubt they will. If they do, though? "We care so deeply about the right of Palestinians to that land, that we'll keep the border closed, as they starve, en masse!" is not a good argument.

How is "We will cooperate with and facilitate Israeli plans to ethnically cleanse Gaza" a better argument? Again, this is why I mentioned the Bosnia example from the early 1990s because this exact topic kept coming up in international talks on how to resolve the crisis.

Well to me it sounded like he was trying to make the argument that since Arabs long ago did an imperialism in the past when conquering the previous pagan peoples who lived there before, Israel has the right to do an imperialism now because it's simply imperialists killing more ancient former imperialists. You know two wrongs equal a right kind of thing.

Yes, such famously pagan people as *checks notes* Christian Rome and Zoroastrian Persia.

 

[Voidwalkin]

How is "We will cooperate with and facilitate Israeli plans to ethnically cleanse Gaza" a better argument

Much less suffering, obviously. Their stance suggests that the cause is actually more important than the people, which is extremely dubious.

Seems to me that Egypt's argument is a smokescreen, and that the actual goal is to use civilian casualties for political effect without actually risking anything internally or externally by Egypt. Which is gross, but common in the ME.

Maybe it demonstrates that when the rules can be gamed, they cease to be useful, and become harmful.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well to me it sounded like he was trying to make the argument that since Arabs long ago did an imperialism in the past when conquering the previous pagan peoples who lived there before, Israel has the right to do an imperialism now because it's simply imperialists killing more ancient former imperialists. You know two wrongs equal a right kind of thing.

More when you go back far enough everyone responsible is dead.

Difference between 100 years and 1000 years is really academic at that point.

Some terms I think are anti sematic and calling Israel a colonial state is useless. Old fashioned imperialism may not fit either.

People migrated there and went to war and won. Not the first time that's happened probably won't be the last.

Once a few generations pass though that's someone's homeland like it or not. There's no real point in making peace with someone who doesn't recognize your right to exist regardless of how moral or not that initial act was.

 

[Ajidica]

Much less suffering, obviously. Their stance suggests that the cause is actually more important than the people, which is extremely dubious.

Seems to me that Egypt's argument is a smokescreen, and that the actual goal is to use civilian casualties for political effect without actually risking anything internally or externally by Egypt. Which is gross, but common in the ME.

Maybe it demonstrates that when the rules can be gamed, they cease to be useful, and become harmful.

In the 90s, when confronted with the Serbs (and Croats) attempting to ethnically cleanse Bosnia of Bosnians, what should the international community have done?
Put a stop the ethnic cleansing? Or help the Serbs and Croats by removing Bosnians from Bosnia?

That is basically the position Egypt is taking. Sure, there are prosaic economic and security concerns as Egypt struggles with a moribund economy and civil wars on two of its borders; but there is also their moral stance: Egypt should not help Israel accomplish what Egypt views as an ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
I'm not sure how else to put it. I'm not asking you to agree with Egypt; merely to acknowledge their position isn't "gross".

 

[Joij21]

Once a few generations pass though that's someone's homeland like it or not. There's no real point in making peace with someone who doesn't recognize your right to exist regardless of how moral or not that initial act was.

And I'd agree, too many people here are ignorant of this fact. Once a land is colonized for too long it becomes the homeland of the invaders.